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"Mumble Only" Events

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"Mumble Only" Events

Postby RogerDodger » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:53 pm

Hello everybody,

I was thinking about trying to make "mumble only" events.

After making already a nice amount of events, I noticed that there are many mumble users that are fairly new to flying, they can fly fairly well, and want to get to the next level and use ATC for a full sim experience, but they seem to lack knowledge of procedure, terminology, and use of charts.
Together with them, I saw a big amount of pilots that are fully skilled.

Therefore, in order for them to learn, I was thinking to create a more professional environment so new pilots can listen and fly next to skilled pilots and so learn the terminology and procedure of a controlled flight.

Sadly, I recently noticed a few ATCs that seemed to not really be knowing what they are doing (using wrong rwys, having no idea of what a clearance delivery is, no idea what SID or STAR is, using bad terminology, etc.), and from a bit of chat that I had with new pilots, seems that they are also flying to these airports and actually learning bad procedures. I noticed that in the last weeks in EDDL, EDDS, EDDH, EGKK (not Jon), LFPO.

So, coming to the conclusion, I thought to try to make a bit more serious events, that will concentrate mumble users for a full sim experience (as much as possible with mumble and one controller), to create more traffic, and to have new pilots learning from skilled pilots. Posting these events a few days in advance, and open them to mumble users only.
Hopefully, if these events will attract many users, we can make bigger events, and to divided the ATC positions as well (in mumble tabs, i.e. LSGGground - LSGGtower, etc.) since there seem to be also many skilled controllers here (Jon, Sam, Zulu, Daweed, and more that I am probably forgetting).

So, let me know what you think about it. :D
Let's make the first try on this Saturday evening in LFSB (Basel), I will post the hours in the ATC website. In the future, if it will have demand, we can do it also on bigger airports, and to have more controllers in more positions.

Waiting for your thoughts about this...
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby SquabToast » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:20 pm

Hey!
Just my thoughts:
When I first flew multiplayer / ATC, I informed myself a lot on wiki etc, which are really well made. However, I was still feeling very unsure and was afraid of doing it. But I am pretty sure, ATC-procedures can only be learned by 'learning-by-doing'. A great way would be to have something like a mentor, where you can do one departure and one landing with full ATC. But also those events can be a nice way to introduce people to ATC. Will try to be available as ATC then since I do like to welcome new users, tho it can be a bit exhausting.
Feel free to contact me

Have a nice day,
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby RogerDodger » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:17 pm

So, a bit late with the reply here, but seemed that the Mumble only event was quite successful.
I had almost all the time at least 2-3 pilots simultaneously, and I heard many new voices, so I think it works quite well.

I think it's after all just normal to learn a bit about ATC communication and procedure before joining a multiplayer event, and while the chat users don't really care about any of that, when people use mumble seems that they try to care and to learn even if it's quite clear that they are very new to that.

I actually don't mind making practice sessions for departures or approaches, if people would want that, I would be happy to do it.

Jomo is always saying that FG events are a good preparation for VATSIM, but coming from VATSIM, it seems to me that many pilots are quite far from being able to fly vatsim and not to be kicked out or to annoy the controller :) so, practice sessions and more mumble only events are a good idea and I am open to it.
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby RogerDodger » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:07 am

**Next mumble only event:
After the successful "mumble only" event, I will make another one on this Sunday, 21st July - hours published in the atc website.

If you have any questions prior to the event please feel free to ask here (ATC procedure/phraseology/general questions, etc.).

Once again, the idea of this event is to maintain a full professional environment (as much as possible of course) so people can advance to vatsim. Of course, skilled pilots are more than welcome so new pilots can hear a good atc contact.
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby tdammers » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:16 pm

RogerDodger wrote in Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:17 pm:So, a bit late with the reply here, but seemed that the Mumble only event was quite successful.
Jomo is always saying that FG events are a good preparation for VATSIM, but coming from VATSIM, it seems to me that many pilots are quite far from being able to fly vatsim and not to be kicked out or to annoy the controller :) so, practice sessions and more mumble only events are a good idea and I am open to it.


Really? My experience with VATSIM, coming from FG, is that it's not actually that much harder. You need to do your homework, but if you do, controllers are generally quite patient (and act more professional than some of the controllers I have experienced on FG MP).
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby RogerDodger » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:31 pm

tdammers wrote in Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:16 pm:Really? My experience with VATSIM, coming from FG, is that it's not actually that much harder. You need to do your homework, but if you do, controllers are generally quite patient (and act more professional than some of the controllers I have experienced on FG MP).


I agree completely, that's exactly the point, that you need to do your homework.
I got to see during the events I make people who arrive or start at an airport without even having a chart (meaning they can't follow a SID/STAR, taxi correctly, know how to make a go around, or many other important things).
Luckily, mumble users are mostly not like that, they do try their best, and I think that the users who joined my events can say that I am very patient and explaining as much as I can.

In VATSIM, controllers need to have a few hours of experience before they can actually atc, and before moving from position to position (delivery first, center last), and also they get tutoring from more experienced controllers.
My initial idea, joining FG community, was to try to do the same that I did in VATSIM over here. It is a very pleasant and not a big community, and I like the simulator :)

Sadly, I totally agree about the ATC professionalism problem in FG, and it seems to get worse. While there are very good ones (Jon, Daweed, LEBLcontrol, Zulu, and sorry if I forgot someone) seems that there are some that have completely no idea of what they are doing. Maybe I should open a thread about this, because it's a bit weird actually.
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby wkitty42 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:31 pm

how is it weird? likely they are new/young folks wanting to try to do more with flying attributes... you gotta jump in and learn somehow... at least this way, they're not doing it RL and causing serious problems out there ;)
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"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby tdammers » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:03 pm

RogerDodger wrote in Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:31 pm:
tdammers wrote in Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:16 pm:Really? My experience with VATSIM, coming from FG, is that it's not actually that much harder. You need to do your homework, but if you do, controllers are generally quite patient (and act more professional than some of the controllers I have experienced on FG MP).


I agree completely, that's exactly the point, that you need to do your homework.
I got to see during the events I make people who arrive or start at an airport without even having a chart (meaning they can't follow a SID/STAR, taxi correctly, know how to make a go around, or many other important things).
Luckily, mumble users are mostly not like that, they do try their best, and I think that the users who joined my events can say that I am very patient and explaining as much as I can.

In VATSIM, controllers need to have a few hours of experience before they can actually atc, and before moving from position to position (delivery first, center last), and also they get tutoring from more experienced controllers.
My initial idea, joining FG community, was to try to do the same that I did in VATSIM over here. It is a very pleasant and not a big community, and I like the simulator :)

Sadly, I totally agree about the ATC professionalism problem in FG, and it seems to get worse. While there are very good ones (Jon, Daweed, LEBLcontrol, Zulu, and sorry if I forgot someone) seems that there are some that have completely no idea of what they are doing. Maybe I should open a thread about this, because it's a bit weird actually.


It's not weird at all; VATSIM has a certain degree of accountability built into it - you need to log in with a proper account, you can be kicked out for misbehaving, and you can't ATC without going through a bit of a vetting process.

The "problem" we have with FG MP is that, unlike VATSIM, users come with very different goals and expectations. Some of us want realistic ATC sessions, others just want to goof around, and even among those who aren't just doing silly things, there isn't a strong agreement on the level of realism, or how to deal with things that cannot be made realistic due to the limitations of the platform. I believe that in an honor system like FG MP, this is inevitable - if you want people to follow consistent rules, you need to enforce those, and that is simply not something the platform can currently do, and I don't believe there is a lot of support for changing that either.

OTOH, it is also possible to run your own MP servers; OPRF does exactly that, to provide an environment for military flying with guns and all, something that would be disruptive on the "normal" MP network, and also something that requires a bit more "policing" and rules. You don't need VATSIM to make that happen; and I think if you wanted to do regular sessions with the goal of teaching new pilots radio communication and flying under ATC, then doing so on a separate server wouldn't be the worst idea.
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby BF908 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:45 pm

As part of the few french guys who try to control french airspace as realisticaly as possible, i'd be glad to help you by taking the APP comms next event in order to have the most realistic airport operations available.
Feel free to MP if you have any ideas or specific procedure you want me to know :)
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby Knüppelrührer » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:03 pm

Seems to be a good idea to have a relaxed training environment!

Thanks to everyone contributing!

Where is the ATC website for hours/dates?
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby daweed » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:13 pm

Hello
@Knüpperlrührer : http://flightgear-atc.alwaysdata.net/, ATC session are announced here and pilots can insert their flightplan

@BF908 To make more than one position usable in an airport, it need [ on mumble ] APP, TW and GND room which only exist on flightgear-radio.autosoft.fr where on Octal server only 1 room exist per airfield.
=> i am meaning by this that having APP & TWR on the same channel speaking make communication really confused
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby LH-1701 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:51 pm

Thanks for the nice event last sunday.

What i really appreciate how common you behave to the unexperienced pilots (OK some of their transmissions maked me smile but we all started unexperienced...)

I will join you more often from now and try to fly as realistic as i can and to help you also to improve when i can.

What would make the event more realistic would be to have several positions manned (e.g.delivery, gnd, twr/app, center)

Reguards

Tobias
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby RogerDodger » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:41 pm

Thanks for the kind message, and I am happy that the events are successful and the users are enjoying it and benefiting from it. I see there is an increase of traffic which is great. It's only the second mumble event and I already had to give wake turbulence warning and assign holding patterns for incoming traffic, that's not bad. I guess that big events once in a while works quite good and they have demand.

LH-1701, sorry that you had to hold, that was since there were something like 4 or 5 planes coming exactly in the same time with completely no separation (they were actually one on top of the other) in very different FL (between 100-250), so that was a puzzle not easy to solve (especially with an emergency traffic) but I think I was able to solve the situation quite ok :)

Actually, do any of these pilots who came in this cluster (I think it was from EDDL) read the forum? Say hi if you do, I can give a few points of improvement if you are interested :)

I will try to respond to all the points in the messages on this thread later, I have some thoughts about your comments.
About positions, it's totally possible I think, you can open in mumble two different rooms, i.e.: LFSB delivery+ground+tower, and one room LFSB dep.+app+center, in this way the communication won't be confused (to answer daweed's message).
Of course that for this I would need another controller, but I think it will be possible if we decide on event dates quite in advance. But I think that for this kind of event (with two controllers) it's better to take a bigger airport and not Basel, since the ground layout is quite simple in Basel after all.
So, it could be a good idea to make a big event like this in a major airport with different ATC positions and a lot of traffic.
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Re: "Mumble Only" Events

Postby LH-1701 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:06 pm

Hi RogerDodger,

i have no problem to fly a holding pattern, it simply belongs to realistic flying.
And as far as i remember you placed it over the correct waypoint.

While staying in the pattern i had time to listen and to look for to the rest of the situation on radio and radar.
It was interesting and some of the transmissions made me smile ;)

So nothing to excuse for and again thx for nice service!

reguards,

tobias (LH-1701)
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