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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:53 am

benih wrote in Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:39 pm:Hello Jomo,
From the three-point list i can guess you also have questions regarding compatibility during sessions, which i can summarize as following.
Keep in mind, that FGCom-mumble will alter your own receiving radio stream locally, but only inside channels whose name start with "fgcom-mumble". That has the following consequences:
Code: Select all
| FGCom-Plugin | Inside fgcom-   | can you hear                             |
| loaded?      | mumble channel? | others?                                  |
|--------------|-----------------|------------------------------------------|
| Yes          | Yes             | Depends on radio model (frq, range, ...) |
| No           | Yes             | Yes, always                              |
| Yes          | No              | Yes, always                              |

Thank You very much for your extended clarification.
Sorry that my point is actually OUTSIDE FGFS!! Generally I agree to your 3 points above -- but miss a forth one: COMMUNICATE (i.e. not just hear and not just on "fgcom-mumble" channels)!

Pls understand: When I ATC I do not have FGFS nor FGCom running! Also I do not care what kind/level of model I control! I guess that possibility is needed in order to support not only the newest/updated targets!! Also we should consider possible future possibilities as well in FGFS as also in radar as also in mumble! And we should make sure that as well the ATC-Pie as well as OpenRadar as well as future possibilities are supported! It would not really be a big advantage when our users would have to change there mumble-installation when flying from Amsterdam to Frankfurt!

Mumble can be used by all people over the world - not just with FGFS. Thus my concern is:
1) Can a FlightGear-user communicate via mumble with someone anywhere in the world - even if that someone does not have FGFS installed??
2) Can a ATC without FGCom installed communicate with ALL FGFS-models ?
Pls accept and consider that communicate does not just include "hearing"!

So very clearly: Someone may be ATCing FGFS-users with or without using FGcom on either side! (Maybe due to not yet updated old FGFS-models or even that the ATC uses a completely different RADAR than used today or similar changes to come!!) Is that possible?

Pls understand: When I ATC I do not have FGFS nor FGCom running! Also I do not care what kind/level of model I control! I guess that possibility is needed in order to support not only the newest/updated targets!! Also we should consider possible future possibilities as well in FGFS as also in radar as also mumble!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:17 am

mudrd8mz wrote in Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:59 pm:I just noticed from the recording that Jomo's scenery is indeed much more detailed than mine is - I do not see none of those service cars on the parking place etc. So likely it's something on my side to fix?

Thanks for bringing that up! To clarify:
Actually there are (at least) 3 scenery's in use:
1) The standard FGFS-version - which is automatically installed with installing the FGFS.
2) A update to that EDDF scenery: https://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF20161218.zip (see the README inside!)
3) A new GIT-scenery: https://github.com/FGMEMBERS-TERRAGIT/terraGIT
All above do have descriptions how to handle inside.

Sorry enough none of those scenery's do include all those fantastic things you see in my ATC-films!
What you see in the ATC-films is No 3 - which I updated with some more models to make it show more crowded/interesting!
Sorry enough I did not yet find the time to insert that into the TERRAGIT library. But again: That added models are for now only a "nicer look"!
Thx for the chance to explain that here.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:34 pm

Hello Jomo,
jomo wrote:Sorry that my point is actually OUTSIDE FGFS!! Generally I agree to your 3 points above

Firstly let me express that in this instance, YOU are the ATC, so YOU make the rules how pilots may contact you.

Then there are different entities we need to separate cleanly.
  • FGCom-3.0: this is the currently, FGFS-integrated voice client
  • FGCom-mumble: this is a new mumble-plugin, about which i talk here. It has nothing to do with fgfs or FGCom-3.0 and is a completely separate development. Basicly, its just a DLL that will get loaded from the mumble client (starting with the future mumble release 1.4.0).
  • FGFS: this is, in view of FGCom-mumble, just a client, that supplies information about location and radios.
  • ATC-Pie/OpenRadar: that are ATC-clients and again have nothing to do with FGCom-mumble. Both however support the FGCom protocol and are thus able to connect to the FGCom-mumble plugin, so you can use the ATC-integrated radio stack.
    ATC-Pie's integration is very good, but Openradar is just basicly implemented, and, in addition, has a bug (see below).

As a principle, FGCom-mumble (which is not to be confused with the built-in FGCom-3.0!) has no concept of "Flightgear" as a specific client. FGCom-mumble offers a generic interface that arbitary clients can use to inform the plugin about the position and radios of the user. They do that using the UDP-Protocol with ASCII/text based messages. They are compatible to the old FGCOM-3.0 messages, so any client that can already talk to FGCom-Standalone is supported. That is at least Flightgear, ATC-Pie (newer versions have native support, which brings some cool features like RDF), and also OpenRadar.
Openradar just supports one Radio (COM1) because of a bug, that also affects the former FGCom-3.0, so its a problem to solve on OpenRadars end (i made a issue ticket for that, but the dev seems to be out of office for some time now).

jomo wrote: -- but miss a forth one: COMMUNICATE (i.e. not just hear and not just on "fgcom-mumble" channels)

Communcation in mumble has two streams per user: sending and receiving. FGCom-mumble will adjust these streams, when active&in the fgcom-mumble-channel:
  • The sending side is not altered in any way. Sending is always possible like in the stock mumble client without loaded FGCom-mumble plugin.
  • The receiving side is only altered, when the plugin is active and the client inside the fgcom-channel. Only then are ALL received streams subject to the radio model, that means you only hear the other party, if he tuned the proper frequency, has operable radios, is in range etc.
    Turned the other way around, if the plugin is NOT active OR the client in any other channel, the plugin does not do anything, and you can "mumble" as usual.

jomo wrote:1) Can a FlightGear-user communicate via mumble with someone anywhere in the world - even if that someone does not have FGFS installed??

Of course: FGCom-mubmle has nothing to do with flightgear. its just a small DLL, loaded by the mumble client.
All channels work like they do without FGCom-mumble plugin.
  • If YOU are inside the fgcom-mumble channel with active plugin, you can send as usual. others will hear you, depending if the use the plugin or not: With plugin, they need to have radios set up etc. Without, they will hear you as usual.
    You will not hear anybody, unless the sending party has the plugin active, properly tuned operational radios and is in range.
  • If YOU are in any other channel, you can always hear others - the plugin is not active there. Same for sending.

jomo wrote:2) Can a ATC without FGCom installed communicate with ALL FGFS-models ?

Yes. Its basic mumble.
However: in case you are doing this in the "fgcom-mumble"-channel, you risk that others will not hear you if they use the plugin; because you are not supplying radio+location information to them via the plugin.
But why would you do that in the first place? Either you want the radio simulation or you don't... (i see the "but i want both!"-usecase, see below, to keep things more simple).

jomo wrote:Pls accept and consider that communicate does not just include "hearing"!

I do. I separated the crowd in the following two categories: The ones that want a radio simulation (and therefore load the plugin and join the designated channel), and the ones who don't (and don't load the plugin and neither are joining the channel).
For technical reasons, currently only this separation is possible.


jomo wrote:So very clearly: Someone may be ATCing FGFS-users with or without using FGcom on either side! (Maybe due to not yet updated old FGFS-models or even that the ATC uses a completely different RADAR than used today or similar changes to come!!) Is that possible?

Also very clearly: FGCom-mumble does not depend on Flightgear or the Aircraft model. It depends solely on the client supplying the proper UDP-messages to FGCom-mumble; FGFS can do this with the years-long integrated FGCom-3.0-Standalone protocol. That in turn sends the standard radio stack properties, which all to me known aircraft use. Of course, some Aircraft dev may deviate from this and implement his own thing, but then he breaks standards compliance for his client, which would also have affected the FGCom-3.0 implementation. This constitutes a bug to be fixed in the aircraft.


jomo wrote:Pls understand: When I ATC I do not have FGFS nor FGCom running! Also I do not care what kind/level of model I control! I guess that possibility is needed in order to support not only the newest/updated targets!! Also we should consider possible future possibilities as well in FGFS as also in radar as also mumble!

In case of FGCom-mumble, you have the choice if you want to service traffic using that or not - like you already decided with FGCom-3.0 (->you dropped supporting it), and for that reason you may also decline to use FGCom-mumble users.

The "but i want both!"-usecase
The probably best and most simple option is, to just open two mumble instances (call `mumble -m` resp. on windows adjust your desktop shortcut to `C:\Programme\Mumble\mumble.exe -m`).
  • The first instance you use as usual.
  • The second one, you activate the FGCom-mumble plugin. You may connect ATC-Pie or OpenRadar to it, OR use FGCom-mumbles RadioGUI to setup your location and radios.
    • a) when "normal" clients join one of your airspace channels, you can service them with your normal mumble instance like usual.
    • b) the FGCom-mumble users are served trough RadioGUI or ATC-Pie or OpenRadar which are connected to the second mumble client (you just use the PTT-buttons of ATC-Pie/RadioGui/OpenRadar in those cases).

And another (not yet available) option could be, that i add an Option to FGCom-mumble that will, if activated, not touch audio streams from mumble clients without FGCom-mumble-plugin. This will go as following, but has the drawback that you can always just service one channel.
  • You have a single mumble instance. You stay in the fgcom-mumble channel with active plugin.
  • You tune your radios (in ATC-Pie or OpenRadar or RadioGUI)
  • You just hit the PTT-button to speak, regardless of the clients type (FGCom-mumble or just mumble).
  • FGCom-mumble users will hear you, when tuned correctly and in range etc.
    They respond and are subject to the radio model automatically.
  • Normal-mumble users will always hear you. You will always hear such users too.
    Depending on the radio you PTT'ed, the FGCom-mumble users will receive your words as subject to the radio model (so if you PTT on the TWR frequency, only FGCom-mumble-people tuned in to that will hear the transmision).
    Normal-mumble users will hear you regardless of the radio's PTT (so they hear TWR and GND from any participant in the channel, for example)

The multiplex nature of this kind of option made me stay far away from implementing that:
Let's say the fgcom-mumble channel hosts the entire earth: Users without plugin will hear any user on that channel. That is surely no good thing (you will hear GND voice traffic for KSFO for example...).
The Option two above seems way more practical.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby mudrd8mz » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:34 pm

jomo wrote in Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:17 am:2) A update to that EDDF scenery: https://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF20161218.zip (see the README inside!)


Many thanks. I can confirm that installing EDDF20161218.zip makes the taxiway signs correct and matching the airport scheme. Lovely! Looking forward to the next session. See you soon!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:34 pm

Just a quick side note:

I added patches for OpenRadar that fix/implement the following tickets:

#6: 8.33 channel tuning support
#5: FGCom-mumble support

Here is a compiled version, containing both:
OpenRadar.jar.zip (kindly unzip and start with `java -jar OpenRadar.jar`)


@jomo, that will apply to the "two mumble instances" scenario i described above, where you would use openRadar as driver for FGCom-mumble, and another Instance for your normal-channel servicing.
Last edited by benih on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby mudrd8mz » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:48 am

@jomo - Is there a place somewhere where you prefer to have flights from or into EDDF announced in advance for your ATC sessions? I noticed there is http://flightgear-atc.alwaysdata.net/ but I don't know if it is actually used.

I plan a flight from LKKV to EDDF via OKG, SULUS, WUR and CHARLIE today, hopefully to arrive in time to get your ATC service for landing. Do you have a mechanism for submission and clearance? Or shall I just contact EDDF tower while passing WUR or so?

Many thanks in advance and please accept my apologies if I missed this documented somewhere.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:14 pm

And from me a question: how are VFR flights handled? I will see if i can do some touch and goes with my c182s D-EBHX...
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:51 am

benih wrote in Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:34 pm:I added patches for OpenRadar that fix/implement the following tickets:

#6: 8.33 channel tuning support
#5: FGCom-mumble support
@jomo, that will apply to the "two mumble instances" scenario i described above, where you would use openRadar as driver for FGCom-mumble, and another Instance for your normal-channel servicing.

Well - sorry - ..
I am overwhelmed with all these news - while I read everywhere that there are still a lot of things to coordinate (e.g. OpenRadar, old FGFSmodels, Mumble (why should I need a 2 mumble support?), etc. So for now I will keep my operation as is: 1 OpenRadar + 1 standalone mumble + 1 OrCam for filming.

All others I will try to follow up - and decide when I see it working.

Sorry - but I have a nicely working operational environment - that I will not endanger prior to be convinced that there is something better available for my kind of operation!
jomo / ATCjomo + EDDFjo + EDDFjo1 + EDDFjo2
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:14 am

mudrd8mz wrote in Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:48 am:@jomo - Is there a place somewhere where you prefer to have flights from or into EDDF announced in advance for your ATC sessions? I noticed there is http://flightgear-atc.alwaysdata.net/ but I don't know if it is actually used.

There is no such forecast/planned traffic at EDDF - and probably will never be, because most of "my" customers are not planning flights with exact timing of any ATC-activities (Start, en-route, Area-Control, Approach, Landing, ...) - because usually there is just one ATC at e.g. EDDF. Till now we are not over-crowed (as the real EDDF is!) -- so it is enough if you report in after entering "MY Area of 100 mi around EDDF". If it is really crowded I might advise you to go into a HoldingPattern over our VORs (or if you do not know what that it is: Just circle over a given point).

So no Problem - you will always be welcomed when entering my (100 mi) area!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:34 am

Sorry - but I have a nicely working operational environment - that I will not endanger prior to be convinced that there is something better available for my kind of operation!

Perfectly fine! You are the atc, you decide. It’s just another option on the horizon to choose from and i just elaborated because you asked for clarification.

Maybe i have time to join EDDF today with my small plane :)
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby mudrd8mz » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:16 pm

Good day.

EDDF newbie here. I would like to ask jomo or other experienced EDDF visitors for confirmation that I understood well the following rules for communication with ATC during EDDF sessions. Firstly I want to apologize for all the mistakes I do. I often realize them late and only from the recorded video. Thanks in advance jomo for the patience.

There are many resources on the web covering the phraseology and ATC communication in flight simulators. Clearly there is a certain compromise between real life and in-game rules and guidelines. Some of my mistakes were a result of my attempt to follow what I believed was the correct procedure. Based on my very few sessions in EDDF (both as a passive listener and active participant) my current understanding is as follows:

When using Mumble:
  1. On initial contact, I start calling "Frankfurt tower, Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor radio check".
  2. Once being under control, there is no need to repeat "Frankfurt tower" at the start because there is no other ATC in the Mumble room / on the frequency, and pilots do not call each other. So whenever I call, it is implicit that I call to ATC.
  3. If I am the one starting the session (such as reporting that I am ready to taxi), then I start with my callsign: "Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor, ready to taxi"
  4. Only when immediately replying to ATC, I mention my callsign at the end. ATC: "Delta Alfa Victor, turn right heading zero eight tree" Me: "Turn right, zero eight tree, Delta Alfa Victor"

When using chat:
  1. My callsign is automatically displayed in the chat, I never type it myself.
  2. I start all my messages with ATC's callsign: "EDDFjo1, request clearance to EDDK, alt 7000"

That way, things seems to work best for both sides. Am I right with these conclusions?

Questions:
  • If I get instructions or clearance via chat, am I supposed to read / type them back back?
  • If so, can I read back via Mumble or shall I type? This actually happened: I got instruction via chat and I read it back via Mumble. Retrospectively from looking at the video, it was not a good thing to do. From ATC's perspective, some random guys starts to yell something to the frequency without any context and it took a while to clarify things. And time is valuable.
  • Shall I spell my full callsign "Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor" all the time? I've read that they can be shortened to for example "Delta Alfa Victor" - but only ATC is allowed to do it. And once they do it, I am allowed (or supposed?) to continue using the shortened variant. Also I noticed that ATC sometimes reads it "Okay Dave" - shall I continue using this form then?

Many thanks in advance for clarifying this. I am enjoying EDDF sessions a lot and I would like to learn performing well so that I do not earn all those !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! exclamation marks that often :oops:
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:20 pm

Jomo, this is for you: https://github.com/hbeni/fgcom-mumble/c ... 1358f0bad1

Code: Select all
Add option to hear all users in the channel (i.e. non-plugin users).

Sending AUDIO_HEAR_ALL=1 to the UDP interface will now activate hearing non-plugin users.

When enabled:
- Non-FGCom-mumble users can hear you (ragardless if radio-PTT used or mumble activated manually
- FGCom-mumble users can hear you trough the radio, but not using mumble directly (unless they activate the option themselves)
- You can hear Non-FGCom-users like without plugin
- You can hear FGCom-users depending on the radio model (range, frequency, etc)

The option can also be set trough the plugin's INI file and also in radioGUI's options dialog.

The intent is that if an ATC operates a mumble channel that just represents his local airspace (and not the entire world),
he is able to server both, users with enabled FGCom-mumble plugin and those without.


:) so this should not be an issue anymore and you should be able to handle both user types :)
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:05 pm

Just wanted to say thank you again,
that was a very nice experience at EDDF :)
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:30 am

mudrd8mz wrote in Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:16 pm:Good day.
EDDF newbie here. I would like to ask jomo or other experienced EDDF visitors for confirmation that I understood well the following rules for communication with ATC during EDDF sessions. There are many resources on the web covering the phraseology and ATC communication in flight simulators. Clearly there is a certain compromise between real life and in-game rules and guidelines.

I do have a German "Radio-License for Aeronautics" as well as a "C-license for Gliders" as well as a "FAA-PrivatPilot" and hunderets of books about it - but here in FlightGear I am not going to teach and request all that knowledge from all participants. I rather want to support all users (from Kids just changing from playing to simulating up to real Captains of 747's). So I apply those "highly glamorous formal rules" to just "must be communication" for everybody!

When using Mumble:

* There is no difference between MPchat and Mumble communication (except that the Typist has a lot more and difficult work ( and forces the ATC to also work a lot more (what I hate!!)) --> Thus all together this is a soft way to suggest for all participants to learn using mumble! (Even a female voice on the radio would be very very welcome! Yes, there would be a lot off male-idiots who would try to show how much of a male-idiot they are - but I guess most females today are used to that and still show that they are female!) And I met already several that are much better than (shall I say again "male-idiots"?) Also do not forget: There are already a whole lot of "real female Capations" also in Lufthansa), etc"
[*] On initial contact, I start calling "Frankfurt tower, Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor radio check".

what for do you need a RadioCheck??? If you do not get a response on first contact you might ask if your call was received -- as well on mumble as also on MPtext. (But pls do not expect sub-second answers - ATC might be busy with 10 planes in area!

[*] Once being under control, there is no need to repeat "Frankfurt tower" at the start because there is no other ATC in the Mumble room / on the frequency, and pilots do not call each other. So whenever I call, it is implicit that I call to ATC.
[*] If I am the one starting the session (such as reporting that I am ready to taxi), then I start with my callsign: "Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor, ready to taxi"
[*] Only when immediately replying to ATC, I mention my callsign at the end. ATC: "Delta Alfa Victor, turn right heading zero eight tree" Me: "Turn right, zero eight tree, Delta Alfa Victor"[/list]

NoNoNo... The messages will always NEED 3 parts in the given sequence: Target -- Sender -- msg!
See in the movies the msg block at the left-lower corner!
And definitely you will see/hear lots of talk between pilots and also there may be several ATC's (GND, Approach, Area, different rw's, etc etc) - and I prefer to have them all on the same freq. per airport )

I hope you can accept that we do as we do and publicize that in our films - in order to be of service for everybody who wants to get some fun in simulated flying -- even if it is NOT 100% by the books!.

Thx for raising this point - giving me the possibility to clarify it also for many others !
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:34 am

Sorry -- a correction to my following answer: Of course the message structure must be:
Sender -- Target -- msg!

sorry sorry
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