EDDF-Triangle

[jomo]

Notice that will break various aircraft (including the c172p - although I don't think you see many of them!)

I myself love to fly the c172p (see e.g. http://emmerich-j.de/FGFS/Alp-flying.pdf) and I get lots of c172p-visitors at EDDF - I never experienced any problems! Please try again and define what problems you mean.

Didn't ORCAM get updated to see aircraft with multiplayer V2?

Let me try to explain: With Multiplayer (MP) (independent of what level) you have 3 options:

1 MP not enabled --> That means you will not be visible to the outside - neither on MP-maps - nor for others locally.
2 MP/RADAR Target --> You activate MP by defining in the FGFS - Menu-Line --> Multiplayer --> Multiplayer Settings: Define the wanted server and and your UID. Thus your TARGET-data like GPS-position + model-ID + altitude + speed may bee seen by everybody using MP.
3) The model --> In that same "Multiplayer Settings" activate "Compatibility --> Visible to all". That will increase the transmitted date via MP by lots and lots (e.g. Livery, Gear in/out, angle of attack, showing a roll-over for a missed landing, etc.). Actually it then sends all the needed "internal Properties" to present the actual (outside) look of the model (see FGFS - Debug - Browse Internal Properties)!
BTW: To visualize that mix of data and model you must have those models installed locally that fit those "Internal Properties" being transmitted! e.g. I right now have 182 models installed locally - and constantly have to add more! And of course I also have to watch for upgrades of those models).

I hope that helps to understand the problems between pilots (with any Model) and the poor ATC that tries to film those -- and of course also helps during events when you want to see the newest and best and ... models of your friends!

That means: For normal flying by yourself the "2 TARGET-view" is good enough (and saves a lot of load for the MP-servers)!
The "3 Model-view" you may need for events where you proudly want to preset your fantastic models -- or like me who wants to show the quality of landing/takeoff/etc to visitors in a film. (see http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/films.html).

Please tell me if you do not agree.

[legoboyvdlp]

The other option is "visible to 2017.2+", isn't it?

When you use visible to all, you will get the old protocol, but when you use the other setting you use the new one, correct.

So, it won't work correctly with visible to all - e.g. with the c172 you will get broken wings etc showing over multiplayer all the time!

[Johan G]

I think you are interpreting the new protocol wrong, jomo. It enables a lot more features than the old protocol, which was only retained for compatibility with older FG versions. Both send the 3D-info over MP. As long as you use a recent FG version to view MP aircraft, you should see them, I do all the time. I think that Openradar wasn't updated for the new protocol, resulting in issues. ATC-pie was, and makes full use of it (correct transponder operation etc.).


A post following this one was split off to the new topic Heading in information window vs. heading in radar plot.

[WoodSTokk]

I think the decision for the old protocol was made by jomo as the new protocol was new.
Not every pilot updates FG all the time, so there was many pilots flying arround EDDF with older FG and they have only the old protocol.
So, jomo have decided to use only the old protocol if you are flying in the cotroled airspace of EDDF.
Today, i think the most people have allready updated FG and jomo can switch to the new protocol, but this is the decision of the ATC thats control the airspace.

AFAIK OpenRadar supports the new protocol. ORCAM (OpenRadar Camera) open up a FG session to view the aircrafts. This FG must be switched to protocol 2.

[Richard]

3) The model --> In that same "Multiplayer Settings" activate "Compatibility --> Visible to all". That will increase the transmitted date via MP by lots and lots

This should only be set when you specifically wish pilots running a version of FG prior to 2017.1 to be able to see animations.

Setting this option significantly increases bandwidth requirements (per craft) and consequently should not be routinely set; and having it set can break recently updated models that use the vastly increased amount of available properties for transmission.

A much better option is to suggest pilots fly a more recent version of FG. The option will be removed in 2019.3

[jomo]

Than'x for all that fantastic answers.
I just miss an answer to my Problem: During each ATC-session I get several visitors which are not visible for filming and block parts of the programs if trying to view them. Does anybody have an solution available today for every FGFS-user ??

What is sure: Whenever I ask them to switch on "Compatibility --> Visible to all" then everything is fine.
Pls. be aware that "wait a few years till everybody is using a different protocol" does not help.
I will not close EDDF for that time till all those things you tell will be implemented in EACH allowed FGFS_installation.
sorry!

[Richard]

What is sure: Whenever I ask them to switch on "Compatibility --> Visible to all" then everything is fine.

As a viewer if you are running a version of FlightGear after 2017.1 it will automatically handle V1/V2 protocol. That's all that you need to do.

The "Visible to all" option is there to allow you to ensure that pilots using a version of FG prior to 2017 see all the properties from a newer version.

So if you are running any version of FlightGear after 2017.1 you should never need to ask pilots to turn on visible to all. If this doesn't work then take a screenshot with the multiplayer pilots dialog open, note the callsign of the pilot that isn't showing correctly and I'll investigate further.

[jomo]

As a viewer if you are running a version of FlightGear after 2017.1 it will automatically handle V1/V2 protocol. That's all that you need to do.

The "Visible to all" option is there to allow you to ensure that pilots using a version of FG prior to 2017 see all the properties from a newer version.

Sorry - I do not understand what you try to tell me. Let me try to describe my problem in more detail:
a) I am on UBUNTU 18.4.2 (the latest available)
b) I am using FGFS 2018.3.1 ( from https://launchpad.net/~saiarcot895/+arc ... flightgear with constant auto-update enabled)

So I believe my software is up to the latest level.
But there seems to be a misunderstanding of what is happening: Not I do switch the "Visible to all" option on my side - but I ask others to do that - and as soon as they switch everything is fine ! Pls do not tell me I would have to switch anything unique for each plane coming in during the session!!! -)

See e.g. http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/201 ... 02-105.mp4,
starting at film-minute 19:09:03 I try to find him - but do not
at 19:10:47 I ask HIM to switch to "vis all.."
at 19:12:51 he did - and I see him wonderful - without doing anything on my side!!!

Pls help me to understand where I do wrong or have an old system or whatever!
rgds

[wkitty42]

it is because whatever you are using (ORCAM?? MPServer??) is not recognizing the newer MP protocol... until it is updated to work with the new V2 protocol, you will always have this problem...

[jomo]

it is because whatever you are using (ORCAM?? MPServer??) is not recognizing the newer MP protocol... until it is updated to work with the new V2 protocol, you will always have this problem...

Well now - so I was doing the right thing!

BUT: How about all the other users of different airplane-models : How can they see other models - e.g. during an event if they just want to show some friend what a new beautiful livery he/she has now? Do all the thousands of FGSF-model-designers have to update all the thousands of models in all the libraries worldwide? (Some designers might not even live any more!)

That sounds very odd to me for the future of any FGFS-event! (And all that pictures that are taken during those events!)
But I can live with that.
thx for the infos

[WoodSTokk]

I think jomo has the same problem that i have.
If i have downloaded the model from the hangar, i dont see the right model in sim if i'm flying another model, only the fallback model if one is defined. In that case the aircraft is colored green in the pilot list.
If not, the blue-yellow glider will be shown and the aircraft is colored red in the pilot list.
If i start with the same aircraft, it works as expected and the aircraft is colored yellow in the pilot list.
This means, i see the right model only if i fly the same aircraft.

My workaround is to add the hangar directory (im my case '/home/woodstokk/.fgfs/Aircraft/org.flightgear.fgaddon.trunk/Aircraft') as 'Additional aircraft folder'.
With this workaround all aircrafts that i have installed are colored yellow in the pilot list and i see the right model (doesnt matter what aircraft i'm flying).
One drawback is that i see every aircraft two times in the launcher (one from the hangar and the other one from 'additional aircraft folder', but thats exactly the same).

It looks like FG take the hangar directories only for local models (that i'm flying).
If another aircraft come in view, FG searches only in 'additional aircraft folder', not the hangar directories.

All tests was made with:
FG: 2019.2 (build yesterday)
Protocol: version 2
MP: mpserver03.flightgear.org
Aircrafts: UFO, Ryan Navion, PA34-200T Seneca II

[Richard]

at 19:10:47 I ask HIM to switch to "vis all.."
at 19:12:51 he did - and I see him wonderful - without doing anything on my side!!!

Pls help me to understand where I do wrong or have an old system or whatever!

From watching the video it seems that you are doing the right thing; except probably you should set the View->LOD Ranges to have AI/MP models as "Detailed only"; you could be seeing a low poly model that happens to be underground.

I don't know about ORCAM (or whatever) - it could be that it relies on some properties - and these will not be available if ORCAM only understands V1 - however the position information should always be available as this is in the part of the MP data before the changes. You could also use the selection list in the bottom left of the model view to switch between aircraft from within FG - and this tends to work better if the aircraft is underground as you can move around and find a below ground viewpoint that might provide us with useful information to understand what is going on.

[jomo]

I don't know about ORCAM (or whatever) - it could be that it relies on some properties - and these will not be available if ORCAM only understands V1.

I thought we all agreed already that this is not just a problem with ORCAM or other unique models -- but it is a problem between all lately designed/redesigned models - independent if they are inside the FGFS-library or in another library!

But of course it is mostly disturbing if you perform e.g. ATC (with whatever model!) and get daily an average of 10 different models from allover the world - compared to pilots that want to view his friend once a year!. AGAIN: It does not depend on ATC - the same happens in events where somebody makes pictures from within his model for all (wouldn't it be funny if in a group-photo of 10 models only 2 show up?) - or maybe somebody just wants to view his friends latest model. Again: It does not matter if you use an ATC-model for that or any other flying model - it's a problem as long as there are incompatible V1/V2 Standards.

Obviously we need to add a little routine into the FGFS-program that converts any incoming protocol (V1/V2) to a standard one - that then can be displayed by all! Otherwise I see no chance to maintain the possibility to view other models in their full beauty - independent of if those models are 20 years old or just one day, or from within FGFS libraries or from outside!
Does anybody disagree??

[Richard]

I don't know about ORCAM (or whatever) - it could be that it relies on some properties - and these will not be available if ORCAM only understands V1.

I thought we all agreed already that this is not just a problem with ORCAM or other unique models -- but it is a problem between all lately designed/redesigned models - independent if they are inside the FGFS-library or in another library!

After testing earlier in the week I'm now fairly certain that the problem lies within the OpenRadar packet forwarding logic; as valid V2 packets are simply not arriving at the ORCAM FlightGear - which is why the models are invisible.

With V1 packets the ORCAM FlightGear shows the pilot in the multiplayer pilots list; with V2 packets the pilot isn't in the list. The same ORCAM FlightGear instance when connected directly to one of the FG mp servers (I used mpserver01) correctly showed the model both on screen, but also in the Pliot list.

[jomo]

After testing earlier in the week I'm now fairly certain that the problem lies within the OpenRadar packet forwarding logic; as valid V2 packets are simply not arriving at the ORCAM FlightGear - which is why the models are invisible.

I have no idea how you got to that conclusion! Did you try to read just a little bit prior to come to that conclusion? Let me just explain a little the basics about that ATC-tool-mix:

* For the basics see open radar http://wiki.flightgear.org/OpenRadar
* For operations see http://wiki.flightgear.org/OpenRadarGuide. In general OR does just work with the always available MP-GPS-data to position the FlightID on a special OR-scenery! And ONLY these GPS-data are forwarded to OR-CAM via an internal IP-link! Thus there is no added load via the MP-servers (see chpt. "FGFS ORCAM")
* For ORCAM see http://wiki.flightgear.org/OpenRadar_FG ... troduction - here watch especially the setup-items: "--fg-aircraft=/data/fgdata/Aircraft"! This means the model-data are not coming from OR or MP - but from your OWN model library! That also means you can use ORCAM without OR (what we ATCs did prior to the OR release!).
* This viewing/filming of any model from any model (during ATCing or events) you can do with any FlightGear model (See FGFS: top-menu -> View -> View Options).

For ATCing we just combined these functions because you usually work mostly with OR - so we provided a unique OR-ORCAM interface in order to define for ORCAM the target-ID to be centered on ! Be aware: Regarding this viewing ORCAM is functioning exactly like any other Airplane-model!

In my films http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/films.html you may also have seen that I do switch the Multiplayer settings ("visible to all") within the ORCAM -- not within OR! So I have no idea why you state the following:

The same ORCAM FlightGear instance when connected directly to one of the FG mp servers (I used mpserver01) correctly showed the model both on screen, but also in the Pliot list.

Pls reconsider Your conclusion - so we might just keep a little chance that someone might find a way to solve that problem. It is definitely not just between ORCAM-OR - but between all Models trying to view each other (e.g. during normal events!)!