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Stop the AI using the runway!

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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby gooneybird » Thu May 09, 2019 6:17 pm

Just to add a few points to what Ian has written:

Where there is multiple parking choices in one spot you will have choose which one to keep otherwise there will be AI stacked on top of each other, I usually keep the largest as that will also be available for smaller aircraft if needed.

I'm not sure the parking P-00 to P-26 etc. need pushback routes, it looks like they may be drive through parking positions, That's also easier to do ;)

Any stray nodes should be removed, Taxidraw does not always pick these up but they do cause a few problems in FG.

I don't put extra off ramp routes in until I get a basic groundnet with pushbacks working, It's one less thing to confuse the issue if there are problems.

Not sure about hold points, I usually put "normal hold points" in as I was told they were going to be implemented, but that was a few years ago and I have not heard anything since so I suppose it's up to personal choice.
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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu May 09, 2019 8:14 pm

Thank you for all the advice! I will check and implement tomorrow.
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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby gooneybird » Thu May 09, 2019 8:59 pm

A little warning about Taxidraw.

It does like to crash now and then when deleting a large amount of data but the worse crash comes when exporting the groundnet as this will also corrupt the existing file.
I find this usually happens if you have something selected when exporting so I try to remember to deselect everything before exporting. I also play safe by exporting to a new file each time ie. EGAA-01.xml, EGAA-02.xml, EGAA-03.xml etc. and save often, this way when it crashes you don't lose everything just your latest edits.
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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby legoboyvdlp » Fri May 10, 2019 9:12 am

Taxidraw really seems to love crashing, doesn't it? :x
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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby BecOzIcan » Fri May 10, 2019 10:40 am

legoboyvdlp wrote in Fri May 10, 2019 9:12 am:Taxidraw really seems to love crashing, doesn't it? :x


Just stay away of any multi selection :-)
aside from pick a node, shift, pick another node, right click join bidirectional

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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby legoboyvdlp » Fri May 10, 2019 10:51 am

Ok -

Image

They are positioned a bit too forward here. All the AI aircraft seem to park with the parking position between their main wheels, while flightgear aircraft typically start with the nose wheel on the parking position?

But marking the east aprons as military has worked fine.

Image

They are taxiing properly to the treshold!

Image
Holding a bit too close to the runway, do the hold short nodes actually work? If not I need to move it a bit to the west.

Image
More holding too close.

Image
This is probably a case where the turns are too sharp, its turning way south before continuing to 03R.

The following Ryanair 737 turned perfectly, though.


Summary
They're now getting to the runway fine - although holding short is a bit wierd.
Pushback needs work, they pull forwards then turn round. I couldn't figure out how to "snap to" nodes to do pushbacks as in your example; using the merge tool crashes Taxidraw.

One problem is that landing aircraft seem to just go off randomly to the right instead of going to the end of the runway and using the taxiway there. Maybe I need to add some intermediate exits - I removed all taxiways except the treshold ones and apron ones.







BecOzIcan wrote in Fri May 10, 2019 10:40 am:
legoboyvdlp wrote in Fri May 10, 2019 9:12 am:Taxidraw really seems to love crashing, doesn't it? :x


Just stay away of any multi selection :-)
aside from pick a node, shift, pick another node, right click join bidirectional

Ian



Ah - ok - thank you - I'll try it :)
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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby legoboyvdlp » Fri May 10, 2019 11:12 am

Ok - adding some unidirectional routes worked to fix the landing aircraft.
Image

So its just pushbacks now - stop them pulling forward and rotatint.
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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby gooneybird » Fri May 10, 2019 1:04 pm

legoboyvdlp wrote in Fri May 10, 2019 10:51 am:Ok -


They are positioned a bit too forward here. All the AI aircraft seem to park with the parking position between their main wheels, while flightgear aircraft typically start with the nose wheel on the parking position?


X-plane take the parking position from the nose wheel whereas FlightGear takes it from the main wheels, so for x-plane parking data to be used in FG the positions need to be moved back a few metres depending on the size of the parking bay.

So its just pushbacks now - stop them pulling forward and rotatint.



That's my biggest problem, you just have to keep moving the pushbacks around, keep them as simple as possible and try and avoid sharp turns.

Working on the AI system can be really frustrating at times due to the many bugs in it but can be rewarding when it all comes together.
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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby BecOzIcan » Fri May 10, 2019 2:35 pm

legoboyvdlp wrote in Fri May 10, 2019 10:51 am:
They are positioned a bit too forward here. All the AI aircraft seem to park with the parking position between their main wheels, while flightgear aircraft typically start with the nose wheel on the parking position?



ParkPos positioning for correct nose wheel alignment, see quick guide in viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33354&p=323534#p323534

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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby BecOzIcan » Fri May 10, 2019 3:00 pm

legoboyvdlp wrote in Fri May 10, 2019 10:51 am:Holding a bit too close to the runway, do the hold short nodes actually work? If not I need to move it a bit to the west.


I never used them (any holding node seems useless but pushback).
In my experience Aircrafts trying to enter the runway (Number 2 to take off and over) will line up at last node outside runway if runway already aoccupied.

This is what I meant earlier with one node on Runway One out. So in essence the rule would be for any segments (2 nodes 1 link) starting/ending on runway ... one node on runway centreline, one node on threshold, nothing in between so depart from the centreline curved design

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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby legoboyvdlp » Fri May 10, 2019 3:55 pm

Ok, thank you.
Just to confirm - my moving the parking stand to fix AI aircraft will not break parking positions for FlightGear aircraft - they will still have the nose on the stop bar?
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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby BecOzIcan » Fri May 10, 2019 4:14 pm

legoboyvdlp wrote in Fri May 10, 2019 3:55 pm:Ok, thank you.
Just to confirm - my moving the parking stand to fix AI aircraft will not break parking positions for FlightGear aircraft - they will still have the nose on the stop bar?
Jonathan


You mean flyable aircraft ? Both FDM and AI aircrafts (if designed properly) should have the same wingspan and nose to wheel distance so should occupy the same spots

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Re: Stop the AI using the runway!

Postby BecOzIcan » Thu May 16, 2019 1:25 pm

Addendum to the "taxiways finishing up on runway" : I have to take back my comment on keeping it simple with only one point on the runway.

I had trouble for the past week with my revamp of OMDB along that approach ; As seen before elsewhere, after running my simulation for minutes 20 or so, one aircraft, halfway onto the runway & marked next to take off, would get stuck and all other AI models attempting to take off would pile up behind it.

Rather than using the usual 'kick in the back' through Debug/Browse internal Properties/AI/model/XXX/velocities trick, I decided to try a different approach and modified the groundnet in Taxidraw to smooth the access and even add an extra node along the take off vector as shown below

Image


I am glad to confirm than since this change I did not experience any more clogging even after running FG for over 4 hours (all that smoothness in traffic is almost boring even).
This does not mean it is THE solution as we know Taxidraw/FG are quite temperamental when it comes to AI movements but definitely worth trying if you are facing the same issue.

Note I have added holding points (Cat II/III + Normal) with still apparently no effect: Aircrafts are still getting onto the runway all the way to the last node as soon as it has been freed by the previous aircraft (which is till accelerating on the runway by then)

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