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JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property  Topic is solved

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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:43 am

you took it to a whole other level as usual.


Have a great day :D

I'm sorry, I have genuinely no idea what got you so upset. Maybe you're trying to see something hidden in my words which isn't there? I don't know.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby swampthing » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:08 am

Thorsten wrote in Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:39 am:Look, I tell people of an issue I believe to be relevant - dividing up discussion into a dozen place tends to hide information.

You can look into my past forum posts that I have said the same thing about forum and mailing list over and over for years. If you opt to take this personally and 'go here again' or if you believe we can't talk because my opinion differs from yours, you have to 'go here' alone - I'm not interested. If you're really only interested in talking to people who share your opinion, I fear you need a place elsewhere, sorry.


With this.... What are you even talking about? I was simply explaining how we had things setup on discord, I also ask "why not post it both places?" I really don't see what the issue is there and I don't think most others will either. I have no problem talking to you but you have a certain way of talking to people that 99% of the rest of the world doesn't. Never in my life have I had to have someone tell me what I said to have a conversation. I'm taking nothing personally it would just be nice to have a conversation like normal human beings. Why is it in a private message you talk to me in a completely different manner than you do in the public forum? I find it a bit odd. Just talk, there is no need to get puffed up and throw out "!!!!!" Did you think I made a post just because you made a comment? No. I would have said the same thing in a reply had anyone else posted it. Where does the part about me only wanting to talk to people that share my opinion? Are we talking politics or something now? What's going on here? The reason I asked "do we really have to go here" is obvious if you read what was just said. Just have a normal conversation. There is no need to constantly quote people and try to marginalize them. Just talk like grown folks do. Its quite simple.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:22 am

With this.... What are you even talking about?


(I'm assuming you actually want to know (?))

I am talking about the fact that having discussions in many different places hides information - an example of which is the division between mailing list and forum where often problems with the Qt launcher are never seen by James because he doesn't visit the forum. Another example of the same thing is trying to move the discussion from here to discord.

The underlying problem is very general and is not specifically related to how you set things up on discord.

If really 99% of people don't understand this, then maybe I need to try harder yet to explain?

Why is it in a private message you talk to me in a completely different manner than you do in the public forum?


Sorry - I handle like ~5 PMs a day in this forum - I can't even recall talking to you on PM. Whatever the difference is, it's not intentional.

Just talk, there is no need to get puffed up and throw out "!!!!!" Did you think I made a post just because you made a comment?


Actually, if anything I'm confused - you seem to imagine me very upset in front of my computer, but I'm actually not at all. I'd have some reason to...

Nothing I said should have gotten your panties in a wad so take a breath and chill.
your quite full of yourself. Get over it man.

Is that how 'grown folks' talk where you live? They sure don't over here - over here your words would be considered rather rude. You can tell your friends in a bar to 'chill' - but we're not friends, we have never met in person, we're having a technical conversation in a forum, so actually it's not fitting to to put in any personal references at all. You would never tell a random stranger you get into a technical conversation with to 'chill' here.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby swampthing » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:47 am

Wow you are very gifted at twisting things around but that fine. You have a good one. I might as well talk to a brick wall.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:52 am

Well, to give you quick feedback how things look from my side:

I give a rather neutral presentation of what I see as a problem in the FG world (something benih had spotted independently by the way), you seem to misunderstand that, take it as a personal affront against your project and launch into a series of rude comments.

I try to get to the botton of the mis-understanding, you take that even more personal.

Hint: Stop searching for any hidden meaning in my words - there is none. I've been for decades in international collaborations, I know that very few jokes, implied meanings and such like work across cultural boundaries - what's funny for a Japanese completely goes by an US-American. So I intentionally try hard to stay away from such things and spell out what I mean in plain languages, and only that.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby swampthing » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:36 am

OK lets just go back to the beginning and skip the misunderstandings that may have happened in the middle. I'f I understood you right you think that all of the discussion of development should be via the mailing list? Or was it the Forum and the mailing list? I got the impression it was though the mailing list. Yes I know you mentioned that half way through our little spat. In an ideal world it could all go through the mailing list but the rest of the world is just not going to operate like that. People just starting out no nothing of it it probably don't want the pain. For Core dev well I can understand everyone neds to be on the same page. What we have to understand is at one time none of us knew anything about any of this so we should choose our words wisely when talking to newcomers. We want the project to grow. I understand that having different forums makes you feel things are hidden but things that are easy for you and things you have navigated a million times are not so easy for people just joining Flightgear. There is a learning curve to even navigating the wiki pages or even knowing they exist for a new comer. The simple fact is people are going go work where they want to. Some find other ways more streamline than using the Forum. Should they be beat over the head for that?
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby swampthing » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:42 am

Another thing I really don't care about word play OK Let talk here. You've been here and there, OK good. Here is something you have to understand when you quote people, its quite a turn off. It gives the impression you are talking down to them. Now you may not care but for the communities sake you should. If it was 15 pages and 5 days ago, sure I understand. Its not always needed. Its something many people have tried to point out. So we can talk like we are standing right in front of each other. it works pretty well for quick conversations. Not trying to be an a-hole I'm just telling you.
Last edited by swampthing on Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby swampthing » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:05 am

Having said that and I hope that doesn't get you upset, I don't see the problem with people being free to work where they want.. As I said they should post in both places. sometimes searching through the forum can be like looking for needle in a hay stack. Sometimes you get an answer sometimes you don't The same can happen on a Discord DEVELOPMENT server. Generally the friendly guys there will have an answer. Its simply a tool. I understand that you want to have it in the vault on the Flightgear Forum but there is a handy search tool that discord has and you can look things up also. The fact is people are going to go where they feel more comfortable. I have tried very hard to bring the community back together. I don't come here to argue. I get your point but I don't think its wise to try and compel people to do it your way in the manner that it comes out. You may not perceive it as offensive but trust me many do. My quote is one from Jefferson so I am obviously one of those crazy guys who believe in Liberty. So whether or not you or I believe it should be done a certain way is irrelevant if we do things to make people run away and I'm not taking about an old spat from years ago before I was even involved with FG, we lose. Not everyone has as think of skin as some of us and if we want Flightgear to grow we need to maybe realise that. I want Flightgear to gorw. You may not like MP but I do and I want interaction. Many people like interaction. Also remember if you follow a sentence with "!" I may think your mad. How can I know? So you thought I was mad and I thought you was mad. Ok its squashed. Thats Ozark for over with. We can agree to disagree and move on.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:17 am

Well... where to begin?

Actually, in an ideal world I'd wish for core development to be discussed in a subforum - the mailing list is awkward with pictures and files and difficult to browse.

That's a Christmas-type wish for an ideal situation (a bit like world peace), because as you so aptly point out, in reality people are people. It'd require that people understand that the time of everyone is limited and they might not get support by the core team immediately. It'd require that core developers are curious and browse threads in other sub-forums for ideas or the need for information. It'd require a certain community spirit to work.

What I see in reality is that lots of things slip through the cracks - information doesn't reach where it's needed or most useful. James needs testers and can't find any, someone creates a cool visual effect which could benefit everyone, but it remains somewhere on GitHub - it's frustrating.

I tend to browse through aircraft development threads here, and occasionally I see a question and can make a suggestion how to overcome this and that problem in a cleaner way, or I see a great idea which I can make more widely available if that is desired. I believe that's by and large a good thing to do. I find myself less and less able to do it as more discussion shifts to GitHub repos etc.

Anyway - I think what can reasonably be achieved is not the ideal situation, but things can perhaps be mitigated. If people are simply aware how much information we lose, they might help spreading it to where it is needed and/or document things better.

The reason I originally entered this thread is not to beat someone up over anything, but benih identified a problem by himself, and I wanted to communicate that I share the general analysis - to give feedback that he's on the right track. And that's about all. Of course you (and anyone else) can work however you please. I don't have to like how you do things (it's not that I'm really against it, it's more the Christmas wish 'If only...') but you don't need me to like what you do I hope? Because as Evelyn Beatrice Hall put it so aptly I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it - so I recognize your full right to do things I do not like (within reasonable limits...) and would not see that right curtailed in any way.

Moving on to the quote thing - I don't like it personally very much, but I do it for two reasons: The first one is clarity - do I give a general response or do I respond specifically to something that was said? In the first case I do not quote, in the second I quote specifically what my reply refers to. The second reason is to create a record of what I respond to that can't be altered by the other party - imagine someone saying something rude, me responding telling him to say rude things elsewhere and then him editing his post to say something nice and calling moderators - it'd look like I launched an unprovoked attack (yes, I have experienced that maneuver). Quoting to what I respond covers my back. These two reasons are actually all there is to it.

As for the liberty theme - i guess just as I recognize your right to try to do things your way, organize your preferred workflow and invite people to participate, I'd respectfully ask that you recognize my right to follow my own vision of how things should be and that I express any critique of your approach this might entail (just as I accept your critique of mine) - I'm generally fine with both of us saying our piece and let the user decide what's more convincing - as long as none of us lies about anything, then I stop being fine.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby swampthing » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:39 am

Good enough. You say that James needs a tester. What would that involve.? I know for Linux there has seemed to have been a problem with Simgear for about 2 months now. It may be a above my pay grade but I can only find out if I ask.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:44 pm

swampthing wrote in Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:39 am:Good enough. You say that James needs a tester. What would that involve.?

actually several testers would be better... what would it involve? reading the dev mailing list and testing things he cannot... eg: things on winwhatever with various video cards or other devices and using the latest code from the repos... actively using the launcher instead of some other launcher... etc...

swampthing wrote in Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:39 am:I know for Linux there has seemed to have been a problem with Simgear for about 2 months now.

there has?? i've not seen anything specific and i build OSG (3.4.2), SG and FG every time there's a new commit added to any of them... granted, i have discord loaded but haven't actually looked at it since my father passed last month... i read emails and two forums mostly... i really do not recall any linux related problem with SG...

swampthing wrote in Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:39 am:It may be a above my pay grade but I can only find out if I ask.

i'm lost... find out what?
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"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:22 pm

Generally the Qt-launcher seems to play out differently on different OS and screen sizes, and James can test only a small subset of that. That's one test area - is the layout okay, are the options reachable, is the flow to set up an FG session okay and working, can you do your use cases.

The second area is general testing - we'll have a release candidate 'soon' - does it run okay? Does it start up at the default location? Do tutorials work? Can you set up your own FG use case?

We need that kind of info.

We're all too often in the forum things like 'I still use 2017.3 because all 2018 releases were buggy' - which aren't actionable, whereas when we learn of a specific bug in the release candidate, we have a stab at fixing it before the actual stable release.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby fb237 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:53 pm

Thorsten wrote:
The general notion is right though - discussing in small private groups tends to hide knowledge away - whereas it is best spread where as many eyes as possible can see it.

So the fragmentation of discussions isn't a good thing as such.


Since I am the owner of two public Discord servers used for development, I have quite a bit of say in what I am about to tell you all.

The aspects of why Discord is a far superior platform for aircraft development can be summed up like this:

1. More immediate communication. It's more fully featured than IRC. It's actually better suited than Hangouts or Slack IMO. Also note the main FG Discord has GitHub WebHook integration so it is possible to get updates (commits, issue messages) of many repositories in real time, all from within the same discord server.

2. Discord supports many more features this forum entirely lacks, including but not limiting to file upload, voice chat, seamless ability to upload images and display into chat without using imgur, link preview and content filtering, Greatly improved PM experience, group PMs, screensharing, and awesome code syntax highlighting in chat, among other things. Oh yes, and message pinning.

Conclusion: The point of the discord server is not to be a replacement for the wiki, but as a practical, modern platform for assisting aircraft development. The main FG discord is also a place for the rest of the community to hang out and since development also happens on that one as well, it has the effect of actually causing people to hop onboard aircraft development. Discord has very much helped the community more than it has hurt.
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:05 pm

You know, I don't really care. I'd be entirely fine with centralizing all discussions on another platform - it's the fragmentation I am concerned about, not so much what platform the discussion runs on.

At the end of the day, if information gets exchanged well, it doesn't matter to me how it's done.

We'd just all have to agree on that other platform (and here lies the rub...)
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Re: JSBSim: searching air-to-fuel-ratio property

Postby curt » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:08 pm

Discord looks to be a slick multi-media chat service. It's much like the old IRC services, but add pictures and videos and audio channels and a variety of other nice features. The actual threads of conversations can be interleaved with each other (as is typical of real-time chat systems) so it can be confusing to try to go back and read some of the conversations. I don't know if or how well the discussion threads are archived? Will past discussions show up in a google search (i.e. if a common question is answered on the discord service, will this show up in future google searches?) One really nice thing about the flightgear forum (and email lists) is that postings show up in google searches, so common issues and questions can be researched before someone needs to ask yet again.

As far as being concerned about fragmenting discussions ... Thorsten must have a lot of free time on his hands if he wants to create a pointless (and unwinnable) battle out of nothing. There was some concern about fragmenting the flightgear conversation when we first created this forum, but we decided that the wishes of the user base to have a forum-style communication service trumped our wish to keep all communication in a single location and format. The primary result was that the flightgear-users mailing list largely was abandoned. I believe these same principles apply today. If a group of users feels more comfortable and productive conversing on a chat-style server, then that's a positive for them. Somewhat analogous is FlightGear forums for other language speakers. It would be nice if we all spoke the same language, but it sure isn't fair for me to get to pick which language. Luckily for me we defaulted to English. <whew!> We do have some fragmentation when forums for different languages are setup, but these forums benefit the various subgroups of our world-wide user base.

Personally, I don't have time to camp out on a chat server all day, but for those that enjoy the real time discussion aspects, I imagine it is a fun thing.
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