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Aircraft windows rationale?

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Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby CaptB » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:40 pm

Hello,

As I continue modeling the B763, I started analysing the sense of having the pax windows that I have already modeled and cut out, I have also discussed this with some fellow aircraft modellers(not FG) and my conclusion is that it does not only make the mesh a lot more complex, which was quite obvious, but also if one is after realism it might not make sense, especially for these heavies with all sorts of seat/class configurations that airlines have(the windows layout are different from airline to airline)

On one side it might look better, and you can apply all sort of nice eyecandy to these cutout windows so in a way they might look realistic, but if the goal is to have the aircraft follow it's real life counterpart's look then windows on a texture seem a better idea than having one modeled and mismatching window configuration for all the airlines.

I would love to have your thought on the issue before I move ahead, thanks.
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby Octal450 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:42 pm

I think textures would be better. After all, its not like its passenger simulator ;)
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby wkitty42 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:30 pm

until it is and you do have the ability to change view to the pax compartment and sit in a seat looking out the window at the wings flexing and the land and clouds flying by ;)
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby DFaber » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:25 am

Hi guys,

CaptB wrote in Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:40 pm:I would love to have your thought on the issue before I move ahead, thanks.


You can also model the windows alone and place them close to the (uncut) fuselage. That way it's just a matter of selecting/unselecting the Windows Object. Applying a glass shader requires them being seperate Objects anyway.
I did that on the Sunderland flying boat and haven't found any problems yet.

wkitty42 wrote in Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:30 pm:until it is and you do have the ability to change view to the pax compartment and sit in a seat looking out the window at the wings flexing and the land and clouds flying by ;)


It's good to keep that in mind. But since the fuselage and windows normals are pointing outward, it is still possible to look out of an interiour model outwards. Requires dedicated interiours for passenger and freight use though.

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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby Johan G » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:46 pm

DFaber wrote in Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:25 am:[...] since the fuselage and windows normals are pointing outward, it is still possible to look out of an interiour model outwards. Requires dedicated interiours for passenger and freight use though.

Very interesting point. :)

Do I understand you correctly in that the external model would not need cuts for the windows as those from a cabin view could be implemented as part of the cabin model. In essence from an outside view there would be no need to show the cabin model, and from the cabin view there would be no need to show the external or cockpit model (provided there is a closed cockpit door).

I wonder what that would do to performance (in particular in multiplayer) if widely implemented. :wink:
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby DFaber » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:38 pm

Johan G wrote in Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:46 pm:Do I understand you correctly in that the external model would not need cuts for the windows as those from a cabin view could be implemented as part of the cabin model. In essence from an outside view there would be no need to show the cabin model, and from the cabin view there would be no need to show the external or cockpit model (provided there is a closed cockpit door).


basically yes. If you want to be able to see the interiour of the Aircraft, I see two possible ways, which I haven't tried yet. Stuff the interiour in a different render bin, so transparent windows look through the fuselage (remember the propdisc-erases-parts-of the-model bug) or maybe using an interiour reflection shader with pictures from the interiour (just an idea).

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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby Thorsten » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:21 pm

Stuff the interiour in a different render bin, so transparent windows look through the fuselage (remember the propdisc-erases-parts-of the-model bug)


Problems with transparent surfaces are usually caused by incorrect z-buffering (aka, you did not use an effect designed for transparent surfaces for a transparent surface).

model-transparent.eff, model-combined-transparent.eff, glass.eff or hud.eff should all have correct z-buffering, so there should be no need to assign opaque surfaces to a different render bin.

You can not render a transparent surface correctly using model-default.eff (which happens if you do not assign any effect), but that's not the fault of the effect framework.
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby CaptB » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:39 am

The usual wing view is one that looks out but also captures the window and parts of the inner panels, my idea is to have a model of that section(window and panel) positioned in front of the camera and turned on only when the wing view is active.

As for the flat windows in front of the fuselage, I believe the 777 uses this for the night windows?
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby Lina001 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:55 pm

Why don't choose textures?
Last edited by Lina001 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby CaptB » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:52 pm

Lina001 wrote in Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:55 pm:Why don't choose textures?


That was considered in the forst post and I went ahead with the textures, even though the artifacts were not visible much after applying a texture.
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby TheEagle » Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:32 pm

Thorsten wrote in Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:21 pm:
Stuff the interiour in a different render bin, so transparent windows look through the fuselage (remember the propdisc-erases-parts-of the-model bug)


Problems with transparent surfaces are usually caused by incorrect z-buffering (aka, you did not use an effect designed for transparent surfaces for a transparent surface).

model-transparent.eff, model-combined-transparent.eff, glass.eff or hud.eff should all have correct z-buffering, so there should be no need to assign opaque surfaces to a different render bin.


I know this is an old thread, but I'm repeatedly having this exact issue - right now, the sun visors (with a partly transparent texture) of my C310 are making the interior transparent, and I see sky through them. Assigning the model-transparent effect doesn't do anything, the glass effect makes them render correctly but only with ALS enabled. I'm using fresh git next build (with Compositor). Any ideas on what I am doing wrong ?
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby property_tree » Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:04 am

Would it be possible to have two different models?
The c172p switches from a modeled propeller to a disc like mesh with a blurry texture on it depending on some states.

Could perhaps a 'PAX scene', that only has 'one seat' be put to the logical position in space where the section would be?

Like, an illusion, with a movie like matte painting.
A small box with only one set of seats, and whatever would be visible from that vantage point, like a wing,and a window to look out of, at a logical place of the plane.
With anything else just being a texture? The pathway to the cockpit or next 'class section' is just a picture.

That could potentially be a performace versus immersion tradeoff.
All non seated, external views then use the normal model that has the textures as windows.

Not perfect, but...'for the purpose' it might be good enough?
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby merspieler » Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:50 am

and how would you account for different resolutions, aspect ratios, field of views etc?
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby property_tree » Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:21 pm

No different than with the cockpit, or anything else.
The important part is the view out of the window, right? If that section of the plane is modeled, would it really be bad to have the less important parts just be a fake?

Especially if the view is obstructed by the seat backrest at the back, and another seat at the front.

Basically, for the view vantage point, it's an enclosed box (or a cylinder, horizontally), filled with a couple of (detailed) seats.
Then one side of that box or cylinder is really well modeled, with a nice window, good textures, etc, to make it fun to look out of.
The rest of the box, since the viewer is sandwiched between seats, can just be a photograph.
Yes, there won't be any convincing parralax, or perspective, or anything fancy, it would be quite obvious that it's a 'matte painting'.
But the highligh, the window side, is fully modeled, and sections of the plane that would be visible, like a chunk of the main wing, or something, would be placed in an accurate spot too.

That would be the "pax view", of which there is only one. Just for flavor.
All other views are outside and would use the regular plane that doesn't really have windows.

Does that make sense?
Again, parts of this scene would be obviously 'fake', but ...that might just be fine.
Especially if the detailing of the 'juicy part' of that scene could be beefed up.
A nice seat, with fabric that isn't just a mush of pixels. A nice thick window with some refraction. Stuff like that.
Perhaps a GPS screen in the backrest of the next seat, so in "pax view" one could still follow the flight part.

That way one can have a nice plane for the outside.
A nice cockpit.
Neither of those being dragged down by a part of the plane that is only viewed when ...selecting a special view.
And...the view when it's selected, nicely detailed, and also not bogged down by the rest of the plane that would not be visible.
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Re: Aircraft windows rationale?

Postby merspieler » Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:44 pm

property_tree wrote in Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:21 pm:No different than with the cockpit, or anything else.


No, cause with a normal cockpit you can look left/right and still have model there... if you make that fake 16:9 and someone has a 16:10 screen, something is missing left and right. If one increases the fov to 120° (max fov) then you'll have stuff missing too.

Yes, there won't be any convincing parralax, or perspective, or anything fancy, it would be quite obvious that it's a 'matte painting'.


Would look just shitty in VR...

Neither of those being dragged down by a part of the plane that is only viewed when ...selecting a special view.
And...the view when it's selected, nicely detailed, and also not bogged down by the rest of the plane that would not be visible.


For that you've got culling, in the culling pass, only visible areas are submitted for rendering anyways...
And modern GPUs can handle millions of vertices without issues... so 10-20k more for really detailed interior won't matter much....
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