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Re: How the project works

Postby D-ECHO » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:19 am

Well, as far as I know commits to fgmembers are checked by IAHM-COL and not everyone has access while I understand that 57 people mean everybody for you.
So, what if aircraft, when they are pushed to fgaddon from fgmembers, are checked? I guess that's where the problem with the big WHO comes...
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Re: How the project works

Postby curt » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:21 am

wlbragg wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:13 am:Something else that made fgm appealing to me originally is I was opposed to splitting up aircraft from fgdata. I have done a complete reversal on that. I think it was a very smart thing to do. It makes perfect sense to me now. It was too much data mixed together and I like the separation. It just makes sense.

In fact I would like to see a method to allow for users to make their own catalog of any combination of aircraft from varying sources or from one giant repo. I think it would be so useful to have catalogs you could load like Boeing, Piper, Cessna or helos, tankers, airliners, twin engine, etc. You get the idea.


Yes! There exists a script for building catalogs in fgmeta: https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fg ... e/catalog/

A few people have tried it successfully and I have received some helpful feedback. There is a small bit of overhead editing the config files but then it can be completely automated. Your specific use case might require some tweaks, but it would be healthy for more people to give it a try.

The ultimate goal is to make it easy for hangar maintainers to distribute and integrate their work with the 'new' flightgear launcher (which has now been around long enough that it's hard to call new.) James's aircraft catalog system makes aircraft searching, selecting, and updating really easy and seamless for the end users. Aircraft [hangar] maintainers simply publish their catalog.xml (which is generated by the script.) A side effect is this system moves us away from dependency on fgaddon (or other even more massive repositories) and promotes smaller and more focused 3rd party repositories and a higher degree of decentralization and scalability.

Best regards,

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Re: How the project works

Postby bugman » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:33 am

daweed wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:17 am:Sry, i don't see here meritocracy ... what i see here is "If you are not agree with Core Dev Team, GO OUT"


Yes, that is the victim storyline pushed by the FGMEMBERS core. What is hidden is the middle, dystopian part though. Let me add that for you, and slightly modify your text: "If you do not agree with consensus decisions of the FlightGear developers, but then viciously and personally attack them, go elsewhere".

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Re: How the project works

Postby Thorsten » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:58 am

I guess that's where the problem with the big WHO comes...


Precisely. Borrowing the metaphor from Erik - do you hand your car keys to every random stranger who tells you he needs a car? Or do you perhaps want to know a few facts about the guy first - like whether he has a valid driver's license, insurance, is trusted by someone you trust and will bring the car back?

So yes, if you come with a history of copyright violations tucked under your belt, you won't get access in a hurry. If you have a history of clean, well structured merge requests you'll see it happen quickly.

That's how the world usually runs - you have to demonstrate your abilities before you get responsibilities.

Well, as far as I know commits to fgmembers are checked by IAHM-COL and not everyone has access while I understand that 57 people mean everybody for you.


I think the 57 was about the number of FGMembers users quoted in another thread, so yeah, that's everyone. And as for Israel checking commits - he is personally responsible for several license violations - either he doesn't understand licensing or he doesn't care - so nobody is going to trust that kind of procedure.

It's like pointing to a car thief in prison when I ask whether someone can vouch for you to borrow my car - doesn't inspire confidence.
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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:07 pm

bugman wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:00 am:
Bomber wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:33 am:So who does the donkey work for fguk..... ?


That's a low punch, considering that you were recently permanently banned from FGUK because of your FGMEMBERS antics. They manage a venerable 3rd party hangar - not cheap copies of FGAddon aircraft - and they regularly contribute into the official repositories. You know that very well.

Regards,
Edward


Well nobody told me I was banned from FGUK..... I haven't been on that site for 3+ years I'd say.
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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:16 pm

daweed wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:17 am:
Bomber wrote in Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:15 am:this is primarily done by siding with the opinions of this 'core' group of people against anyone who voices a counter opinion to them.


Sry, i don't see here meritocracy ... what i see here is "If you are not agree with Core Dev Team, GO OUT"


Be careful, as if more people post up the same feeling about the meritocracy here then very much like the other topic, where people suddenly started agreeing it was wrong for Bugman to delete an image... This topic will suddenly have a massive dose of censorship deletions.

Just a warning to those wishing to test this theory out.
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:20 pm

wlbragg wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:13 am:
bugman wrote in Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:15 pm: This sometimes results in lost advertising revenue, as the FlightGear user using FGMEMBERS will no longer need to visit the upstream website.

I have to say, I never really thought about that potential.


I use ad blocker....
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Re: How the project works

Postby D-ECHO » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:41 pm

Thorsten, bugman etc. what would be the best solution in your eyes what should be done with FGMEMBER aircraft. You don't seem to be happy with the current state, so
1. I can do the merging or so work for FGMEMBERS planes into FGADDON (though I am not sure what exactly would have to be done so someone would have to tell me...)
2. ...?
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Re: How the project works

Postby bugman » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:57 pm

D-ECHO, it's pretty simple. Since March 2015 when Israel was trying his hardest to convince me in private emails to become the maintainer of FGMEMBERS (and thereby convert the FlightGear project to FGMEMBERS from the FGAddon infrastructure that Torsten Dreyer gave me the keys to to maintain), I have tried to advise him to position his creation to not be in conflict with the official infrastructure. I have given him a lot of advice, but there is a single sticking point - he wants the FGMEMBERS infrastructure to replace the official FlightGear content infrastructure. He stubbornly refuses to shift from this position to this day. Anyway, here is a simple demonstration of this problem:

Btw, my challenge to you to get the FGMEMBERS core to produce evidence (as links to the public archives) where their contributions were rejected still stands.

Regards,
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Re: How the project works

Postby curt » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:59 pm

Hi D-ECHO,

There are a few known exceptions, but most of the fgaddon aircraft have original authors still active and interested in maintaining their aircraft. So if your are interested in moving forward with this, I would recommend contacting the original author(s) of the aircraft and funneling any improvements and fixes back through them. This conveys respect and a desire for positive collaboration to the original author(s), allows them to review the changes, and they will naturally already have access to fgaddon to commit the improvements there.

For the situations where the original author has completely stepped away from FlightGear (or in one case passed on) we can usually find ways to move forward on a case by case basis. For the P-51d (for example) we would treat that work with the ultimate of respect and admiration and be very very careful with any changes out of respect and memory of the original author, Hal Engel.

Best regards,

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Re: How the project works

Postby D-ECHO » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:25 pm

I understand.
I'm sorry but I also do not have the time to do this, so the state will stay as it is. Still this discussion at least brought some more knowledge about this topic to me.
On the other side, a bit off-topic I know ;) I have quite many GPL aircraft currently only listed in FGMEMBERS. Most of them are on a great part massively based on other aircraft in FGADDON/FGMEMBERS. Is there a possibility/what do I have to do to be able to get them into FGaddon?
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Re: How the project works

Postby bugman » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:32 pm

I have documented the process required for FGAddon additions at:

Any suggestions for improvements are welcome. Just note that different aircraft developers use FGAddon in different ways. Sometimes the aircraft development occurs directly in FGAddon, and sometimes it occurs in a 3rd party repository or hangar.

Regards,
Edward

Edit: Note that a higher level of scrutiny will be applied to FGMEMBERS content due to the history and the laissez-faire attitude of the FGMEMBERS core towards copyright violations. The FlightGear core actively try to prevent this, but FGMEMBERS say just identify the content and we will remove it after the fact. So the FlightGear project needs to be careful.
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Re: How the project works

Postby curt » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:39 pm

D-ECHO wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:25 pm:I understand.
I'm sorry but I also do not have the time to do this, so the state will stay as it is. Still this discussion at least brought some more knowledge about this topic to me.
On the other side, a bit off-topic I know ;) I have quite many GPL aircraft currently only listed in FGMEMBERS. Most of them are on a great part massively based on other aircraft in FGADDON/FGMEMBERS. Is there a possibility/what do I have to do to be able to get them into FGaddon?


It is good to either make the time to do things the right way or leave things alone. For the fgmembers GPL planes massively based on other author's works, one option would be for you to create a 3rd party repository out of this collection and maintain a catalog.xml and corresponding .zip files. This way you just publish the link to your collection's catalog.xml and any user can add that link to their FlightGear launcher and immediately search, access, select, download and update their copies of aircraft using the earlier mentioned fgmeta catalog building script here: https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fg ... e/catalog/ Whenever you update the catalog with new aircraft versions, the FlightGear launcher will notify the user that new versions of their downloaded aircraft are available and give you the opportunity to update to any new versions. James has created a really nice, user friendly system that promotes 3rd party hangars and decentralized control of aircraft development.

Either approach (working with the original authors out of respect for their original efforts) or setting up a 3rd party catalog.xml that you maintain, enables you to create FlightGear friendly, and FlightGear compliant hangars (or collections) without needing to pass through any forum moderator gateway.

Best regards,

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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:41 pm

bugman wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:57 pm:D-ECHO, it's pretty simple. Since March 2015 when Israel was trying his hardest to convince me in private emails to become the maintainer of FGMEMBERS (and thereby convert the FlightGear project to FGMEMBERS from the FGAddon infrastructure that Torsten Dreyer gave me the keys to to maintain), I have tried to advise him to position his creation to not be in conflict with the official infrastructure. I have given him a lot of advice, but there is a single sticking point - he wants the FGMEMBERS infrastructure to replace the official FlightGear content infrastructure. He stubbornly refuses to shift from this position to this day. Anyway, here is a simple demonstration of this problem:

Btw, my challenge to you to get the FGMEMBERS core to produce evidence (as links to the public archives) where their contributions were rejected still stands.

Regards,
Edward


It's a bit difficult to produce evidence as posititve conversations about FGMEMBERS on this forum are considered propaganda and eventually deleted...... as this one eventually will be.
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Re: How the project works

Postby bugman » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:43 pm

Bomber wrote in Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:41 pm:It's a bit difficult to produce evidence as posititve conversations about FGMEMBERS on this forum are considered propaganda and eventually deleted...... as this one eventually will be.


The flightgear-devel mailing list archives are permanent and non-editable!

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