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Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.


Postby Jabberwocky » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:39 pm


we have a Jumbolino aka BAe-146-200. It's not perfect, it's not graphic heavy, it could use more instruments, but hey, it flies and it looks like a Jumbolino ...

Have fun!
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby thuthur » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:37 pm

Why this aircraft isnt in my planes list ?
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby D-ECHO » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:54 pm

Please not that you can't find Jabberwocky on this forum anymore (he was banned), to ask him questions, it's probably better to directly proceed to FreeFlight-FreeSpeech Forum.
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby Octal450 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:52 pm

This is because there is a problem on Windows and Mac with FGRUN, and some aircrafts with voodoomaster do not show up for some reason. You will need to start from commandline to work it, or remove Voodoomaster from the aircraft.

Last edited by Octal450 on Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby tikibar » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:13 pm

@it0uchpods - That's a load of horse s**t. The way JPack is linked in is a kludge. It works okay when you start FG from the command line, but it doesn't agree with the launchers. It never has. Nobody ever tried to sabotage JW's planes. Lose the conspiracy BS, or leave it over at the other forum. This isn't the place for it.
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby Alant » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:52 pm

Recent changes to flightgear code caused lots of aircraft to crash when started via fgrun (including my own WIP) . It was because simgear did not handle error reporting in a safe manner, and fgrun makes use of simgear routines for this.

One work-around is to start fgrun from the command line,and you can then see the error messages (usually bad texture files) that caused fgrun to crash.

The good news is that simgear has been fixed and when fgrun is compiled using the latest simgear this problem will have hopefully gone away.

There was no conspiracy I´m afraid. Sorry to disapoint you. ;-)

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Re: Jumbolino

Postby Octal450 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:55 pm

It worked at one point. Then it stopped working. It's funny how doing PropertyList include <path to voodoomaster> but other property list includes work.

Before you start complaining about flame war crap (I swear if this thread turns into an FGMEMBERS flame war I'll leave here forever)

I'm saying what I was informed. Done.

Why don't you prove me otherwise?
"It's funny how doing PropertyList include <path to voodoomaster> but other property list includes work." is my observation.
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby PINTO » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:11 pm

I mean, this is an open source project, so you can easily check if it's being blocked by actually reviewing the source code itself.

Here's the source:

And the aircraft loading is handled in this file:

Do a ctrl+f for .xml, -set.xml, voodoo, jwocky, or whatever, and look for yourself

So, it's plain to see that it isn't hard coded to block anything purposefully other than malformed .xml files.
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby curt » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:23 pm

Hi it0uchpods,

James (primarily) is working on developing a built-in launcher which is intended to completely replace fgrun. This new launcher is pretty mature, runs nicely on every supported OS, and is already available in the current release. Fred B. (who was the primary developer for fgrun hasn't been involved with FlightGear for quite some time, and fgrun is built on a pretty old gui library called "fltk". Any changes that have been made to fgrun in the past couple years have been band-aids by people just trying to keep it limping along with modern os updates, newer compilers, newer osg libraries, etc. There will come a time (probably fairly soon) where we will stop supporting, compiling and distributing fgrun with FlightGear. (Fgrun of course will always exist and anyone can compile it and use it and maintain it if they wish, it just will stop being distributed with the core FlightGear package in favor of the newer launcher.)

I fully support and backup tikibar's clear and direct statement that no developers have intentionally added or changed code to fgrun in order to make specific airplanes not show up in the fgrun launcher. It seems strange that people would make such accusations and repeat them and pass them along? Time would be better spent focusing on the future, testing if these aircraft have issues working with the new built in launcher (and then if they still aren't working, try to figure out what is different from all the other aircraft that do work just fine.)

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Re: Jumbolino

Postby Alant » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:26 pm

As I said in my post above my WIP also crashed with fgrun. It turned out to be because some of my texture files were not in the power of two size format. Fgrun sent out an error message. Simgear could not handle the error message, and fgrun crashed.

.Fgrun detects errors in many other aircraft and these also crashed. James has patched the error message printing code in simgear and this should now be corrected in the soon to be release new version of flightgear.

You are being misled by someone. I suggest you question whoever is feeding you this nonsense. He is obviously intent on causing trouble..

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Re: Jumbolino

Postby Octal450 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:25 am

Why don't we wait till it's done and see if Voodoomaster works or not.
I honestly prefer FGRUN much.
Maybe it's not intentional.
But then it's a bug that was deliberately not fixed? otherwise the code would have worked shouldn't it?

I don't appreciate the harsh wording tikibar, Not so nice. This place is really falling apart.

I know what I'm told, I wasn't here when the whole flamewar happened initially.
If you'd like to fix it, and prove your theory then fine.

New launcher is hard to use, clumsy, and WHERE IS THE CONSOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So that is it.

Your bias views do not make it much fun for me to post on this thread.

what a fail of a forum
Last edited by Octal450 on Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby Thorsten » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:35 am

I don't appreciate the harsh wording tikibar, Not so nice. This place is really falling apart.

Excuse me Josh, but look for the blame where it belongs - with you. You wrote a harsh accusation phrasing it as a statement of fact:

This is because FlightGear developers modified FGRUN so that JWocky's planes (specifically Voodoomaster) won't work.

Now, maybe in other forums you can maybe say whatever you like, no matter whether it is true or makes any sort of sense. Here it's expected that you back it up with evidence.

The commit history of FGRun is here - it's all out in the open ... next/tree/

Please either point to the commit where the developers modified FGRun as you claim, or admit that you were wrong and apologize. If what you say is true, then you have every right to say it - but if it is not true, then you're spreading inflammatory lies. So please take the trouble to sort out which it is.
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby D-ECHO » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:44 am

About which version are we talking?
For me it is working fine :D
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Re: Jumbolino

Postby bugman » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:09 am

You won't find the commits in the FGRun sources, but instead you need to look at the Vorpal software which runs on a remote machine and operates using a bit of voodoo ;)

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Re: Jumbolino

Postby Hooray » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:25 am

Like Alant said already, it's most likely the textures/power-of-two thing - every once in a while, this tends to crash certain parts of fg (or related software) - however, there is an OSG flag to automatically resize textures transparently.

We did at some point contemplate adding some kind of "validation mode" to ensure that references directories, paths, files are actually there, that case-sensitivity is handled properly, and that files have the right format - i.e. some kind of verbose "startup mode" that would notify aircraft developers whenever something does not look right.

Actually modifying C++ code to specifically exclude certain aircraft would be a lot of work and would be pointless given the open source nature of FG, it would be too easy to circumvent - note that years ago, one core developer made commits to made certain scams harder, and even those were controversially discussed, and ultimately reverted within days - and those were actually scammers ripping off people by re-selling re-branded versions of FlightGear for 80 bucks - and the only changes that were made to the c++ code back then were adding hard-coded, and slightly obfuscated URLs, but even those were reverted.

So don't be concerned about the integrity of the project and its stakeholders - quite frankly, I am very often getting the impression that there's way more integrity than the project can realisically handle - making the lives of those scammers harder would not have been a bad idea in my opinion ...

Thus, may I politely suggest that the fgmembers folks actually review such incidents and see if such accusations are valid - For instance, see (2007): ... /23832311/

Background: ... /12294427/ ... /20855632/

Durk also discussed this in various threads on the forum, which I cannot find atm.

Subject: FlightProSIm
richter wrote:
jj28 wrote:Surely the simplest solution to all of this is to add into the next update of Flightgear a big splash screen the first time it is run with a notice like: "FlightGear - the FREE Flight Simulator. If you paid for this software then you could have downloaded it for free at

Similarly, there should be code for each aircraft model to display a splash screen the first time it is used with the developer's name and where to download it for free.

Just make sure that the source code for it is not simple to remove, and it will stop this guy ever recompiling a new version and selling it.

It won't stop him distributing what he has got now, but he can't keep selling old versions of Flightgear forever. Eventually he will have to move on to something else.


You're advocating the deliberate obfuscation of source code. This is explicitly forbidden under the definition of Open Source by the Open Source Initiative, and though not explicitly addressed by the GNU GPL, I would argue that it is against the spirit of the GPL -- far more than is the resale of software for money. Did it not occur to you that obfuscation would prevent me and every other FlightGear user from modifying the software as well?

It's a terrible idea.

Subject: License Question :?
Hooray wrote:
Bomber wrote in Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:31 pm:Take the gloves off and program your way out of the problem..

In fact, this has been attempted before - and it caused quite some irritation among fellow contributors, it only takes a quick mailing list search to see how many flamewars were caused by such "creative programming". FlightGear is open source, and GPL, for a reason.

For example, I am referring here to hard coded routines coded directly into the C++ source code that were meant to obfuscate certain code and that were implemented by long-term FlightGear core developers who are intimately familiar with the FlightGear code bases.
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