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An introduction to copyright and licensing

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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby jaxsin » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:42 am

Richard wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:21 am:
Thorsten wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:00 am:Interesting... so what is taking a bicycle that doesn't belong to you, ride home and just drop it then? It's still gone from the POV of the owner, though you have no intention to keep it, just to use it once. I think that's still theft in Germany, though I'm not 100% certain. Also, 'permanently' seems a fishy criterion - we can't conceptually deprive people forever of something because they eventually die, and so do we - so this must map into some time duration in practice.


In the example, it doesn't matter whether you have the bicycle or not, if you have taken it and the owner no longer has it then you have deprived the owner of it. It is the intent, not the result, that is the test. So by taking the bicycle and leaving it near your house with no intent to return it then that is probably good enough to prove "permanently deprive". Whereas if you take the bicycle, ride it home and fedex it back to the original owner that is a valid defence for a theft charge. At this point the owner could well sue you for damages incurred as a result of your actions, so if the owner had to take a taxi to work you'd have to pay for that as well.


You are using a circular argument. Thorstens point was, regardless of the crime committed, you can not undo a criminal offense once committed. The only way to undo the criminal offense is to pay the piper, make ammends. The court of law does not care what it charges you with, but they will convict you if you committed an offense and it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'd also ask, what was the intent of taking the bike in the first place? So you can pay to fedex it back? Why not pay for a new bike that you can keep instead? As a jury member, I'd laugh you out of the court room on that premise alone
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby Richard » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:38 pm

jaxsin wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:42 am:Thorstens point was, regardless of the crime committed


I realise that; my point was simply that it's not a very good example...
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby jaxsin » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:05 pm

Richard wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:38 pm:
jaxsin wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:42 am:Thorstens point was, regardless of the crime committed


I realise that; my point was simply that it's not a very good example...


I think it is a great example for the reasons I sighted, you can't just say "I was always going to pay to send it back via fedex." and expect that to hold up in court.
What is your next argument, "I needed it to ride home because my foot hurt." Wait, why not just pay for a cab then? Hitch a ride maybe? Even call for police assistance!
All of which you know going in are legal versus your questionable approach of sending the stolen item back via fedex.

Now I get it, fedex is not the point here. But if you want to start pulling out 'special circumstances' then we need more then a brief summary of the law as we see here. Which I think goes above and beyond the intention.
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby Richard » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:35 pm

jaxsin wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:05 pm:I think it is a great example for the reasons I cited


It's a poor example because it defines a reasonable defence to the charge of theft. The example should be steal a car, paint it pink, set it on fire, sell it for scrap, and then claim "I was always going to give them the money"
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby jaxsin » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:46 pm

Richard wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:35 pm:defines a reasonable defence


in the words of another, "on what planet?" special circumstances need not apply!
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby Thorsten » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:41 pm

I'm not sure how much this is a peculiarity of UK law. If the requirement for a non-legal text is to try to come up with any example that's in agreement with all legal systems across the planet, then I consider myself in over my head :shock:
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby curt » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:58 pm

Bike and car analogies can be useful, but because source code and digital content can be duplicated/transported at zero cost (for all practical purposes) these analogies don't completely work. Most people know you shouldn't steal or damage or deface someone else's bike. But there are always a few people who are ok with it if they can think of some personal justification. If someone took the position of respecting other people and respecting their work and their property (no matter what the circumstances) then these discussions are much less needed. It takes someone with a small amount of experience and wisdom to figure out that if we don't all apply these principles consistently, no matter what our mood is right now, we ourselves will soon find ourselves on the losing end of a situation with no recourse.

My engineering definition of things like law and culture is that it is very much like a flight control system that has generations of experience built in. We might not always understand or agree, but there are 100's if not 1000's (if not 10's of thousands) of years of accumulated wisdom that feeds into these systems. If a new person comes along and wants to throw it all out and start from scratch, just base on their few years of personal experience and understanding, chances are they will fix the one or two things that bugs them at the expense of completely missing the larger picture. That doesn't mean all of law or culture is spot on, but people are often far too quick to justify doing what they want to do right now without considering the much larger picture.
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby MrMinimal » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:20 pm

FIrst of all, thank you to Throsten for this incredible summary of FlightGear related legal questions.

You mentioned that 3D models can be copyrightable. Being an artist I am very curious about this.
If you look at say the Cessna 172 which is a very detailed representation of the original thing - is it allowed to simulate a Cessna to such a degree (also graphically) without infringing Cessnas copyright?

Wanting to create GPL'ed aircraft I am really curious about this and obviously don't want to get sued over modelling one.
Is there a way of legally modelling planes without explicitly getting permission from the manufacturer?

Thank you in advance, I am really glad FG is in the hands of such competent people!
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby Catalanoic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:37 pm

look to the hondajet issue, we dont have the money and the time to invest into a trial to prove that copyrighted products simulation isnt copyright infringement, despite we can win that. this would gain some law protection to related issues. my opinion is, companies need to see that and be more openminded despite their commercial ambitions. in some perspective we're promoting their products for free indirectly.
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:54 pm

While I am not, obviously, a lawyer, I think this is not a problem. The main issue is trademarks, not copyright. The design of an aircraft is patented and trafemarked. Trademarks are all about confusion - for instance you can't start an airline called easyAir that flies between Gatwick and Belfast. We have, I think, a valid legal case that nobody is going to think a fictional simulated aircraft is affiliated with Honda, Boeing, Cessna etc. In the case of the Honda Curt wasn't willing to take the time, effort, (and money)! to fight the request of Honda.

Furthermore arguably our use comes under fair use, and finally can be thought of as free advertising!
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby Thorsten » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:58 am

If you look at say the Cessna 172 which is a very detailed representation of the original thing - is it allowed to simulate a Cessna to such a degree (also graphically) without infringing Cessnas copyright?


I'd assume the copyright mostly covers the actual blueprints, which have structural details (what materials to use where, what's behind the visible surfaces,...) - which a 3d model utterly lacks. If you make a 3d model from publicly available information, it's unlikely to enable anyone to reverse-engineer the actual design in reality. That might change if your 3d model is based on proprietary blueprints of the aircraft - which might be considered a trade secret.

As far as trademark infringement is concerned, the question is - will anyone be prone to believe the FG aircraft is somehow created by or endorsed by the real manufacturer. Creating a 3d replica is unlikely to do that, using the manufacturer logo prominently on the splash screen or wording like 'Cessna presents:' will more likely be seen as trademark infringement.

With the lone exception of Honda, aircraft manufacturers seem to be rather supportive to modeling efforts in flightsims.
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby MrMinimal » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:16 pm

Thank you for the quick reply, you were way faster than me!

Alright that's reassuring, especially since FlightGear has got the be the subject matter expert project for these sorts of things.
I only go about recreating the shape based on photogrammetry, which would fit into the publically availible information you mentioned. Maybe mention that the manufacturer does not endorse the product as seen in DCS loading screens.

Also I wonder if using CC SA NC would be a good idea to keep them at bay, because the product can't be sold.

Thank you for the feedback , I feel more confident in contributing now!

Cheers
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby IceBreaker » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:36 pm

Interesting topic. I noticed that some users have created commercial forkgears for commercials, which I do not like at all. Is there a way (license) to avoid the marketing of Flighgear content? distribution, editing and more ok, but seeing products derived from Flightgear with official website and characters that boast of having developed the definitive simulator makes me really sad.

For real aircraft brands I do not believe, do not hurt anyone, Flightgear is just entertainment. An idea would be this: in the cloche of 172p instead of the Cessna brand insert a nice logo of Flightgear? with under the silver inscription "172p", I think it's a good idea, the plane is always the same but we avoid any problem with the brands and various annoyances. The result is very nice, I do not think it's a problem to use this solution.
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Re: An introduction to copyright and licensing

Postby legoboyvdlp » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:47 pm

I don't think such a solution is necessary. As you say FlightGear is just entertainment: nobody is going to think its a Cessna product.
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