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Re: Su-15

Postby abassign » Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:05 am

Unfortunately I'm very busy with work, but I wanted to take the test with the "/sim/rendering/draw-mask" This is a preliminary test:
PC with GTX 870 graphics card with 6 GB VRAM, 32 GB RAM, quad-processor I7-4700MQ 2.4 GHz
Display: 1920-1050
Airplane: Vitos Su15 last version
Airport: San Francisco Intern. runway 01L
Meteo: Hight Pressure Region
ALS with all max effect
Pilot view

Random vegetation 0.0
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 46-49
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 52-54
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 56-58
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 55-57
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 57-60
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 57-58
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 59
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 59

Random vegetation 5.0
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 39-41
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 45-47
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 48-55
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 54-55
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 56-58
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 57-59
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 59
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 59

Random vegetation 10.0
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 31-32
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 39-40
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 36-40
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 1" fps 47-49
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 56-58
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 57-58
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 1" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 59
"/sim/rendering/draw-mask/aircraft = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/clouds = 0" & "/sim/rendering/draw-mask/terrain = 0" fps 59

As you can see the aircraft affects for 15-18%. Note that even the trees affect much on performance, especially from the value of 4 and up. If I start from the airport of LOWI, the incidence of trees is much higher, the frame rate decreases to around 20-25 fps with random vegetation = 5.0
Last edited by abassign on Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:47 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Su-15

Postby geed » Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:44 am

See, on my machine I get a completely different result.

Got the same setup in Flightgear, latest Su-25 from the FGUK hangar, ALS on and everything up tom maximum. To choose different tree settings doesn't matter in my test as I get this result:

Enabling and disabling aircraft rendering doesn't even change my FPS. It stays at 33-34. I don't really know where you get your 15-18%, at least here it is not happening.

Petar's Su-25 looks good and is very performant on my system, which is a ASUS ROG Laptop utilizing a GeForce GTX 770M and an i7-4700HQ at 4,7GHz on Windows 8.1

Also this system is already at the higher end and comes at a price of 1500EUR which is, as I think, already way more than the average Flightgear user wants or can invest.

I just wanted to present my result to show that with a different card there will be different results - still with the Su-15 I get 5-7FPS.
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Re: Su-15

Postby abassign » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:10 am

@geed

Excuse me, but I made a mistake with the name of the plane :( , I used Vitos "Su-15" ... Therefore, the complexity is normal this reduction in performance, I invite you to repeat the test with the Vitos plane.
But it is interesting to test with the simplest Su-25, you can also do that table that I did? So we can compare the data.
Last edited by abassign on Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Thorsten » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:15 am

@abassign: Just read his post again thoroughly for once. Please. You'll be in for a real surprise.
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Re: Su-15

Postby abassign » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:22 pm

@ Thorsten,

You have just canceled my following post on the performance of the Su-15 as a function of various system parameters. It seems that when we discuss on the performance, your attitude is extremely upset, I'm not a psychologistso I can not deduce that distant cause for such you bizarre behavior.
The Su-15 has a file created by Vitos .ac, large more than 30 MB, it is interesting to understand what affects the overall performance of the program. The tests that I have done, I seem to understand that the file so large, does not have a high impact on performance, but there are other elements that seem to have a much greater impact. It seems useful to investigate them, not investigate them it seems to me stupid. I hope now that we can continue the analysis of this aircraft without further incident, thanks.

Addition after response of @Thorsten:

No, I haven't.
Neither could I remove or cancel any of your posts even if I wanted - as far as this forum is concerned, I don't have any moderator or admin privileges.


I am dismayed by what I said and I do my most sincere apologies to Thorsten, really do not understand how it happened to the cancellation of the two posts that I had entered. I absolutely sorry to what I wrote, but to maintain the context of this post I decided to keep it in the post deleting, in constant evidence of how we should not too angry with their colleagues!
Last edited by abassign on Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:31 pm

like I said previously, you can use the osg-stats and use osgviewer/fgviewer in standalone mode to draw your own conclusions, or just post your results here
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Re: Su-15

Postby hamzaalloush » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:59 pm

@ abassign, you have a GTX 870, it's normal that you're not vertex limited.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Thorsten » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:33 pm

@ Thorsten, You have just canceled my following post on the performance of the Su-15 as a function of various system parameters.


No, I haven't.

Neither could I remove or cancel any of your posts even if I wanted - as far as this forum is concerned, I don't have any moderator or admin privileges.


It seems that when we discuss on the performance, your attitude is extremely upset, I'm not a psychologistso I can not deduce that distant cause for such you bizarre behavior.


I'm not a psychologist either, so I can't deduce the cause of such bizarre accusations. Maybe we should ask Vitos - he allegedly is one.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:28 pm

Update: Droppable external tanks. Start Su-15-Tanks. Forces and moments turned out to be comparatively big, so it useful mostly to long distance subsonic flights.

Image

As of fps: "Su" is JSB model. It uses Nasal if there is not other way presented only. As some people would spend their time not at claims, but at putting fdm at separated thread, as it shall be, and, moreover, will make other fdm thread running at low priority for systems calculations - it will run as smoothly as other models - here at 22fps, as it goes on replay at screen.

But, as I can see, people here prefers to simulate improvement.
Waste of time: too unprofitable for work, too exhausting for hobby.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:38 pm

I think I understand your last paragraph completely, but have you actually confirmed that the FDM is causing so much load that it's worth running it asynchronously ?
I am just wondering, because usually, the FDM accounts only for a fraction of the execution time over the overall time spent creating the frame, and given the complexity of the 3D model and textures, I would assume that quite some time is spent rendering, not updating FDM state.

To see for yourself, you can open the performance-monitor, and post a screen shot here - next, do the same thing with the osg-on-screen stats.

If in doubt, JSBSim also provides a way to run in standalone mode, you can basically run a 2 hr flight within a few minutes, and watch the whole thing using a task monitor (top/htop on Linux).

This should tell you immediately if you are FDM-bound (which really is a fancy term for saying that you'd be CPU-bound), which seems unlikely as far as I can see.

However, in general, I do like the idea of running more and more subsystems in dedicated worker threads, but in this case, it seems there are much lower hanging fruits, i.e. at the 3D modeling/texturing level to speed up things - you could also use the aforementioned draw-masks (/sim/rendering/draw-masks) to see how much of an impact the 3D model itself has.

It will definitely be interesting to see your data
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Re: Su-15

Postby Thorsten » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:53 pm

As of fps: "Su" is JSB model. It uses Nasal if there is not other way presented only. As some people would spend their time not at claims, but at putting fdm at separated thread, as it shall be, and, moreover, will make other fdm thread running at low priority for systems calculations - it will run as smoothly as other models - here at 22fps, as it goes on replay at screen.


We can safely rule out that scenario - remember a user has already reported the dependence of framerate on view position characteristic for rendering?
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Re: Su-15

Postby hamzaalloush » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:54 pm

here's some data...

Vito's Su-15:

Image

Richard's F-15:

Image

FG's UFO:

Image

draw your conclusions

edit: was using my laptop's Intel HD3000
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:56 pm

lol, using just osgviewer, Richard's f15 is more osg-friendly than the ufo ?

BTW: thanks for posting those !
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Re: Su-15

Postby abassign » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:14 pm

@ hamzaalloush
I honestly prefer to do the test in the context of FGFs and not out of context, obvious that an object with 300K vertices is heavier than one with 15K vertices, but it is also infinitely more realistic! I think that those who want to fly Su-15 should have a appropriate PC! However the evolution of the GPU is very fast, so I think that it is always possible for a larger number of users FGFs, use machines with better performance. However, from my testing with the GTX870 (currently a board of high-end, but not very high ...) the problem is not the plane, but the context in which it is immersed (terrain, trees, clouds ...), that's where we must optimize. I think we could define an airport, runway and weather conditions that are standard, and only on that arena test this (and other) aircraft. Might be opened an area of interest in this blog in order to do these tests and show.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:21 pm

I disagree, but it depends I guess - you can only draw reliable conclusions once you do multiple tests doing different settings/configurations, which includes all tools at your disposal - including different model viewers like osgviewer/fgviewer.

vitos stated quite clearly that he attributes performance issues to the FDM, I said that this would be unlikely, and suggested a workflow to check his theory.

In conjunction with viewing the model in osgviewer, fgviewer and fgfs using different settings, we can draw reliable conclusions.

Those osg stats should really be dumped to the console during startup, maybe just the aircraft-specific branch, i.e. separated scenery/aircraft to write into the log file how complex an aircraft/airport (location) really is/was.

I really believe that this is a useful metric, and the approach could also be suited to understand other issues, i.e. rendering a minimal view of a scene and removing/adding different elements using draw-mass to see if/how they impact overall scene complexity and performance.

This would probably also help us understand Rembrandt issues, and it would allow us to identify opportunities for optimizing Canvas further - e.g. by allowing such stats to be gathered "per-canvas" (texture), querying the whole sub-graph for the corresponding cam, which is possible using existing osg APIs)

In fact, aircraft/airport complexity I would even log to the splash screen right away, to provide some data to aircraft developers

Finally, osgviewer is a good way to exclude FDM, Nasal and Canvas altogether - so it provides an excellent baseline

And that is not specific to the Su15, you could just as well do the same tests with the 777 or the extra500, and anybody interested in understanding FG performance issues, is well-advised to use such tests to determine if, how and where certain features are contributing to those
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