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Access to MPserver12

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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:08 am

I wonder what is wrong with Thorsten


He is stubbornly attached to facts and evidence.

Yet in another thread, I see him play down the importance of correct licensing, and in fact I have never seen him take a stand at all in discussions where copyright violations have been the issue.


For the record, here are you downplaying the importance of correct licensing (emphasis by myself) - giving lip-service to copyright once after arguing against looking too closely a few times before doesn't really make one more credible:

Edward:

So it is ok to turn a blind eye and to eliminate gatekeeping and all the safeguards, thereby possibly allowing illegal content to flow in, all in the name of creating a faster development model?


Vincent:

The answer is yes, and you could have made that up from what you quoted yourself.

(...)
It is much more fun to debate about details like copyright.


There's a couple of more points where the context is a bit longer where the link leads, but I guess I rest my case. I don't know whether anyone can make these various statements on copyright match to your quote later, but I sure can't. It's a strange world in which pointing out gross inconsistencies in a position argued amounts to slander or 'shrewd character murder' - I'm happy let the things you've said speak for themselves and let everyone draw conclusion whether you in fact downplayed copyright.

Also, I am not aware of any discussion in which you pointed out to the fgmembers proponents the importance of copyright - I guess that point then also stands.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Johan G » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:27 am

This is getting way off topic and does not seem to be that productive. And, the discussion are going around in circles (again). :roll:
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby KL-666 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:35 am

Well that is just great, Thorsten is allowed to continue bending the the truth. He continues to quote and match things he did not understand on topic, and i have taken the time for to explain on topic (see my self quote in the previous post).

The situation is getting worse and worse here. Now an attack on integrity is called just being off topic, instead of taking measures against the perpetrator.

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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby simbambim » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:49 pm

This thread is not about FGMEMBERS or copyright. This thread is about the discrimination by an mpserver admin against two pilots.

I said that I can't judge whether the MP community has such established good practices as are claimed or not.

The question was not whether there are good practices or not. The question was whether it is right or wrong to discriminate against people based on personal dislike or as a revenge.
Never mind. I know you're too biased against Israel to admit he has been wronged. Which may be understandable under the circumstances, but then you shouldn't be posting in this thread. There's no point posting to a thread only to defend the guilty party and rejoicing that "there's nothing you can do anyway". Nobody ever asked about the legal side and nobody was going to go to court, I don't even know where you got this weird idea. And in fact, it's not true that nothing can be done. The problem is not wanting to do anything. Has anyone even talked to evilslut and warned him that this is not acceptable? Surely there are people who have the power to remove his server from Flightgear or at least threaten to do it. I do realize that this will not happen because legoboy is not important enough (let alone Israel) for you to start a fight over him with a server maintainer. But clearly there is something very wrong when trolls are allowed to run wild for weeks with the excuse of 'openness' and 'freedom' while sensible players are banned on a whim and the powers that be turn a blind eye.

To make it clear, I consider this particular incident (two incidents, actually) a lost cause and I'm not fighting for their access to be restored (would they even want it). Judging by the IRC conversation, evilslut is not a person to whom you can appeal to reason, nor conscience.

Instead, what I see is consistent with a group (users) arguing for their own interests.

Funny you should say this because I see you doing exactly the same. If you are so ethical when it comes to licenses, why don't you apply the same moral standards when there is blatant discrimination and abuse of power? Of course, the answer is because you feel immune to being banned from anywhere in FG as you are an important contributor. Licenses, however, matter to you, so you do take a stand.
And people don't take a stand on every matter maybe because they don't understand it enough. The law issues are especially notorious for being so complicated that it's not possible to understand for the person in the street.
But as I said, this is not about FGMEMBERS and copyright.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby curt » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:25 pm

Hi Simbambim,

Thanks for reminding everyone here of the original topic. Sadly, it seems like every thread involving these certain intertwined topics runs off the rails sooner rather than later. I have not spoken up as quickly as I should ... partly due to sorting out my own thoughts on the issue ... partly due to being under the weather the past few days and not being able to do much of anything that involves brain effort. I agree that blocking a user from a service is a fair thing to do if there is an issue relating to that user misusing the service or diminishing the service for others. Blocking a user for purely punitive reasons is a different matter, that is more difficult to defend.

Is it possible to ask for patience in resolving the matter if I say that it is not being ignored and dismissed?
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby simbambim » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:47 pm

curt wrote in Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:25 pm:Is it possible to ask for patience in resolving the matter if I say that it is not being ignored and dismissed?

Sure. Thanks for letting us know.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby KL-666 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:00 pm

I agree with Curt and Simbambim, it is only fair to be patient when there is being worked on something. Let us know when you have come to a resolution of your thoughts.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:26 pm

Never mind. I know you're too biased against Israel to admit he has been wronged.


I guess then we can just stop discussing here - the idea that causality might work the other way round apparently has no place in your mind. I guess in your world people who report thieves to the police also only do that because they're biased against these people, not because stealing as such happens to be wrong.

Funny you should say this because I see you doing exactly the same. If you are so ethical when it comes to licenses, why don't you apply the same moral standards when there is blatant discrimination and abuse of power?


May I remind you about the purpose of my being in this thread? I meant to explain to you why shouting censorship is not going to be productive. And I was very careful in never stating my personal opinion on the matter - mostly because, as I said repeatedly, I do not know what exactly is usually happening on MP servers nor what has happened in this particular event.

Quoting myself:

Regardless of my personal opinion on what takes place on MPServers, I would like to point out that I can't see circumstances under which it would be censorship.


If you think it's wise to make strong moral statements based on knowing one side of a story, that's your thing - I do not think it's wise. I remain with my assessment that asking nicely and patience is a much better way to resolve this than threats. But have it your way... I'm out of here.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby curt » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:01 pm

Here is a quick update. The owner and maintainer of mpserver12 is firm in his original decision. So rather than have this stance reflect on the flightgear.org domain, he prefers to rename his server to something that is not associated with flightgear.org to make clear that he is an independent entity and making these choices on his own.

So as to not endorse this change, I will let Rob communicate the specifics of this change in his own way. Then I suppose users are free to "vote with their feet" by choosing to use the newly named server or switch to one of the many other servers.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Hooray » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:03 pm

those are just DNS entries, to simplify MP setup for end-users. Otherwise, the majority of servers is run/maintained and sponsored by people not even involved in other parts of the project, including core development.

If any of you should decide to donate your own resources to the project, it is up to you to reconsider your donation at any time, and also exclude people from using infrastructure that you provide, and it outside our control, and may even be pretty unfortunate - which is why key-infrastructure (website, forum, wiki, mailing list) is run by key contributors.

I guess it would make sense to review/evaluate this discussion and update the MP article on the wiki accordingly.

Personally, I have yet to see anything useful materializing from the multiplayer feature, it is causing tons of work and pain for most of us, and I would even consider discontinuing it altogether. So I can perfectly relate to fgms admins deciding for themselves who they want to provide services for or not.

You only need to look at all the MP/VA traffic the forum is seeing and how much work that is, while the majority of end-users are not even contributors, but are just asking for a top-notch product (fgfs) and service (fgms).

If you don't like the way the fgms network is operated, you could spend 10 minutes setting up your own fgms instance, and only share that with friends - instead of bothering the forum with stuff like this.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby simbambim » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:13 pm

Thanks, Curt.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby curt » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:24 pm

This also means that the mpserver12.flightgear.org name is now available and will be assigned to the next mp server that someone volunteers to contribute. If anyone wishes to jump on this now, we can preserve the mpserver12.flightgear.org service so that people that are used to pointing to this server experience minimal outages.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Thorsten » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:37 pm

Sometimes it's really depressing seeing how the course of events will go in advance...

So all that could be done is threaten to no longer allow the server to use the domain. And if the server admin in question says 'So what? Shoot yourself into the foot if you want.'
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby KL-666 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:10 pm

Hello Curt,

You are a man of your word, when you said you were working on a solution. Not surprising, i believe this solution will be good for the reputation of flightgear in the world of free and open software.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Hooray » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:25 pm

To all the people who disagree with one admin revoking access to their fgms instance: if you decide to donate your own hardware/money/resources to provide a multiplayer server, it is also up to you to exclude people from it obviously, and the project really has no say about that.

The whole DNS/sub-domain thing is just a convenience for end-users, but a server not using said sub-domain, or not being listed on the wiki, still continues to exist. And if I remember correctly, there even is a dynamic MP server list that is updated automatically. So a server using such a sub-domain or not has no bearing on the MP network.

Thorsten wrote in Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:37 pm:Sometimes it's really depressing seeing how the course of events will go in advance...


believe it or not, that's exactly how I've been feeling the last 6+ months about all this, anticipating pretty much everything that's happened in the meantime :lol:
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