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Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 5:27 pm

@KL-666
I've read many comments/arguments/takes=on the issue of rating.

I think a "vote" system may allow for ponderation or averaging of opinions. Rating could even be continuous scale as oppose to a discrete scale (like 3.25, for example), if several opinions are averaged.

Also, averaging, when not a large enough "sample size" may be sensitive to extreme or very opinionated people. But as an alternative a median type of computation could be used for balancing this issue (besides, on a discrete variable, the mean remains as integer, so that could approach that).

All of the rating topics (FDM, cockpit, model, ...) are complex issues, and although there is a "guideline", applying such guideline does not seem to be clear cut to me. And some people will definitely be more qualified to judge an FDM than others. (compare you and I). Also, a handful of aircraft may have alternative FDM versions, and only one FDM rank. The different FDMs could be widely spared in separation of qualities, thou.

I don't foresee an immediate brilliant idea to deal with these situations, and the heavy opinions certain topics, such as FDM, creates. Yet, what you state, remains uncontroversial to me: Several aircraft are over-rated.

But on the other hand, referring to getting @bugman paper-cut bugs he can tackled, here is another one

@bugman::A large number of aircraft LACK a rating section in one or several -set.xml files. These are great to have, plus they are kind of required for the future QT5 Aircraft download section. He could maybe create a "rating" section initially filled with 0, indicating Not-rating available yet! :D. Having the section rated as zero, could allow easy re-rating in the foreseeable future

What you guys think?
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Thu May 07, 2015 5:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 5:29 pm

bugman wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 5:21 pm:
So the original intent of the aircraft author is required to determine how this should be handled.



I don't see it yet, Ed.
You just mix both channels in a mono source (-ac 1; as indicated above) and use the same name for the file.

You get the sound in FG, so, currently is broken. After solution is fixed.
I don't think you are loosing some "author" intent there. And for sure, author intent was not having his sound file not rendered.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Thu May 07, 2015 5:41 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 5:29 pm:
bugman wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 5:21 pm:
So the original intent of the aircraft author is required to determine how this should be handled.



I don't see it yet, Ed.
You just mix both channels in a mono source (-ac 1; as indicated above) and use the same name for the file.

You get the sound in FG, so, currently is broken. After solution is fixed.
I don't think you are loosing some "author" intent there. And for sure, author intent was not having his sound file not rendering.


I'm just not comfortable doing something without first attempting to solicit the original author's consent. For real stereo files, i.e. not a duplicated mono, I would like to ask them - combine (and how), split and position, or drop a channel? This may mean that it will take longer, but it's a doable and worthwhile task to have a more immersive 3D sound. It could be easily done before the v3.6 release.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 5:43 pm

Sure.
Regardless of what route you take, if you fix those audio files, I am thankful.

did you read about the Non-rated aircraft rating section "paper-cut" fix?
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby LesterBoffo » Thu May 07, 2015 5:43 pm

Folks it's monaural because of ALS and this new little entry in the sound files..

Note the <position> entry, stereo files don't work in a simulated 3D aural environment.

Code: Select all
  <crank>
   <name>crank1</name>
   <mode>looped</mode>
   <path>Aircraft/Sunderland/sounds/peg_start.wav</path>
   <condition>
    <and>
     <property>engines/engine[0]/cranking</property>
     <not>
      <property>engines/engine[0]/running</property>
     </not>
    </and>
   </condition>
   <position>
    <!-- x/y/z == back/left/up -->
    <x>  -2.93 </x>
    <y> -6.80 </y>
    <z>  0.64 </z>
   </position>
  <volume>
   <property>/orientation/alpha-deg</property>
   <type>log</type>
   <min>0.5</min>
   <max>1.0</max>
   </volume>
   <volume>
   <factor>1.2</factor>
   <max>1.0</max>
    </volume>
  </crank>
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby KL-666 » Thu May 07, 2015 5:59 pm

Hi IAHM-COL,

I do not think i am looking in the direction of voting and opinion. What would a vote be worth if it is based on flying another crappy fg plane? The guy would say, i am used to such-and-such behaviour, and this plane shows such behaviour, so it must be a good plane.

As Thorsten said, i am looking for some formalized flight tests that can be used as objective as possible to point at certain deficiencies. Still there might be some discussion, but not as fiery as when it is about opinions.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Thu May 07, 2015 6:06 pm

Continuing with the an2 aircraft example, here is my attempt at split it into two point sources and position them at different locations within the aircraft:

Code: Select all
[edward@localhost Aircraft]$ cd an2/Sounds
[edward@localhost Sounds]$ sox an2_flaps.wav -c 1 an2_flaps_left.wav
[edward@localhost Sounds]$ sox an2_flaps.wav -c 2 an2_flaps_right.wav
[edward@localhost Sounds]$ rm -f an2_flaps.wav
[edward@localhost Sounds]$ cd ..
[edward@localhost an2]$ svn diff
Index: Systems/an2-sound.xml
===================================================================
--- Systems/an2-sound.xml       (revision 647)
+++ Systems/an2-sound.xml       (working copy)
@@ -309,10 +309,10 @@
          </pitch>
   </engine>
   
-  <flap>
-         <name>flaps</name>
+  <flap-left>
+         <name>flaps-left</name>
          <mode>in-transit</mode>
-         <path>Aircraft/an2/Sounds/an2_flaps.wav</path>
+         <path>Aircraft/an2/Sounds/beacon.wav</path>
          <property>/surface-positions/flap-pos-norm</property>
          <volume>
            <factor>0.4</factor>
@@ -319,7 +319,30 @@
          </volume>
          <reference-dist>10.0</reference-dist>
          <max-dist>20.0</max-dist>
-  </flap>
+      <position>
+       <!-- x/y/z == back/left/up -->
+       <x>  -2.93 </x>
+       <y>  6.80 </y>
+       <z>  0.64 </z>
+      </position>
+  </flap-left>
+  <flap-right>
+         <name>flaps-right</name>
+         <mode>in-transit</mode>
+         <path>Aircraft/an2/Sounds/an2_flaps_left.wav</path>
+         <property>/surface-positions/flap-pos-norm</property>
+         <volume>
+           <factor>0.4</factor>
+         </volume>
+         <reference-dist>10.0</reference-dist>
+         <max-dist>20.0</max-dist>
+      <position>
+       <!-- x/y/z == back/left/up -->
+       <x>  -2.93 </x>
+       <y> -6.80 </y>
+       <z>  0.64 </z>
+      </position>
+  </flap-right>
   <avionics>
          <name>beacon</name>
          <mode>looped</mode>
[edward@localhost an2]$



Feedback is more than welcome, as I'm not an expert here. Everything after the 'svn diff' command up to but not including the last prompt "[edward@localhost an2]$" can be copied and pasted into a an2_sound.patch file which can then be applied with 'patch -p0 < an2_sound.patch'.

I've set the left hand side sound to Sounds/beacon.wav to really appreciate the 3D stereo effect. It's awesome, change the flaps, then look backwards and change the flaps again :) In this case, the original author should pick the 3D positions. That's assuming that they don't want to dump a channel or perform averaging or non-linear mixing.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 6:08 pm

makes sense Vincent.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu May 07, 2015 6:42 pm

This should be considered humor, possibly sad humor but...


any and all fictional aircraft are always (could always be considered ) 5by5 rated.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Thu May 07, 2015 6:55 pm

clrCoda wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 6:42 pm:This should be considered humor, possibly sad humor but...


any and all fictional aircraft are always (could always be considered ) 5by5 rated.


I strongly disagree! At top speed, Santa would never be able to make it all around the world in 1 day. He should loose some points!
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby themadgreek » Thu May 07, 2015 7:09 pm

Hello,

I'm confused about something. What is considered the "official" collection of FlightGear planes... the one on the download page?

If that is the case, are these linked to the latest versions from the developer's repositories or is there someone who manually updates them at a certain release cycle?

Best,
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 7:28 pm

@Phil
I think this is how it works (others can correct inaccuracies)

Every release cycle (example FG3.4), they make a "release" branch with the "that day-status" of the Aircraft in FG-Addon

FGAddon: http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fga ... /Aircraft/
Release branches: http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fga ... /branches/
Release-3.4: http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fga ... /Aircraft/

This latter link is used to create the ZIP files that go in the Download page: http://www.flightgear.org/download/aircraft-v3-4/
and those are called/labelled: The FG Official Aircraft Release #.#

IH-COL
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 7:37 pm

bugman wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 6:55 pm:I strongly disagree! At top speed, Santa would never be able to make it all around the world in 1 day. He should loose some points!

Santa Aint a fictional Aircraft ED!
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Thu May 07, 2015 9:30 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 5:43 pm:did you read about the Non-rated aircraft rating section "paper-cut" fix?


Yes, your idea of defaulting to zero might push some authors to give a rating. Others will be more difficult. These are highly subjective measures. Maybe it requires a crew to pick an orphaned aircarft, fly it from point A to B, and write a quick report to the devel list with a recommended set of ratings that can then be adopted? There are some old planes with awesome FDM implementations in the official collection which could do with a better than zero rating.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 9:48 pm

well the point being, I believe the ratings are going to be needed for the QT5 launcher.
So that's yet another corner of paper to cut.

Getting a template with a mock value (zero seems a reasonable binary of "not rate yet added") seems the way to go to the wealth of non=rated aircraft.
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