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FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:17 pm

PART C: Is it morally right. Should I do this as a 1 man feat?

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=25314&start=15#p231984
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=25314&start=15#p231986

For Gijs suggestions, I researched What was the devel list, and decided to accept his petition to talk to the right people about the right issues

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=25314&start=15#p231993

{@ Hooray above: I am trying to give perspective again, and make note that FGMEMBERS really is a proposal for a FGAddon replacement}

edit: apologies for capitalizing
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby Müller » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:24 pm

Various topics open to discuss the same thing, same subject without reaching a goal, we see only unfounded debates, what we are seeing here is an exchange of accusations, please someone of a Stop, FG community can not stand, do not support more and does not want to read this kind of stuff.
Want to discuss? then do the following open your Skypes, webcam and microphone and talk, discuss, talk all that's on their minds and please leave this Forum breathe more relieved.
Administrators and moderators, please edit, delete, and if applicable withdraw from the Forum that are causing all this mess
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:25 pm

Hooray wrote in Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:09 pm:As a forum user, I would hope that you can find a way to restrict your fgmembers related postings/updates to a single thready/location only - if in doubt, I am sure that we can set up a dedicated sub-forum, providing that you stop posting elsewhere/everywhere.



1. I did not brought this topic
2. I was not the first one talking about FGMEMBERs and it clearly was about it
plus other tears
3. I did ask Gijs about a FGMEMBERS subtopic on the forum. The petition did not go thru.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:32 pm

PART C: FGMEMBERS proposed to the devel list. The "why not" :: cons

1. Is too late to change
2. Some people is sorry I missed the years of arguments about how to split fgdata, but then 1
3. The submodules strategy is useless because git can't handle too many modules (false so far. I dont know the cap)
4. FG is a meritocracy, and the people with the merit say "then 1"
5. SVN-git hybrids are born not out of elegance but out of necessity (false. there is not such necessity, as proven by FGData next with submodules)
6. It will not be accepted because some one (or several ones) feel that it will not work, but Alternative proposal will (this is where testing resolves doubts)
7. Never told to me directly, but spoken to me indirectly: The real fear was to give critical infrastructure to me (again false. I offered FGMEMBERS to the admins of the FG infrastructure, and offered my time to show how is used, and how it works)

Those were the arguments I recall were used to say this discussion had reached a final end


Post-edit:
5. Also, note, how the devel-list has increasingly become now an space that deals on "how to plug my git aircraft repository to that SVN thingy! methods and workarounds.

The real answer to those comments now going in the devel-list is:
KISS: Maintain a git system and drop the risks:

http://git-scm.com/book/en/v1/Git-and-Other-Systems-Git-and-Subversion wrote:
It’s important to note that when you’re using git svn, you’re interacting with Subversion, which is a system that is far less sophisticated than Git. Although you can easily do local branching and merging, it’s generally best to keep your history as linear as possible by rebasing your work and avoiding doing things like simultaneously interacting with a Git remote repository.

Don’t rewrite your history and try to push again, and don’t push to a parallel Git repository to collaborate with fellow Git developers at the same time. Subversion can have only a single linear history, and confusing it is very easy. If you’re working with a team, and some are using SVN and others are using Git, make sure everyone is using the SVN server to collaborate — doing so will make your life easier.
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:39 pm

PART D: Definitely creating the alternative

I will not speak of the Cons of FGAddon. That ellicits a long list of emotional responses.
I will not speak of the Pros of FGMEMBERs. There are several, and I spoke of those also. But when in doubt, test ride it.

I will say thou, that I did posted in the devel list a post saying:
Fair enough. You are definitely convinced your FGAddon is a functional system.
I said I was planning to implement a git system of FGDATA with submodules and use FGMEMBERS to allow user to repopulated their Aircraft directory in a way that makes sense, and its easy, and that I was to promote the alternative to aircraft developers. I asked then:
Is there someone that think I should not do this?
The question was the logical one. I went to the devel list to figure out 1) If we could replace the Addon. and if not, 2) If I could morally keep FGMEMBERS

The answer then was, by a few gentlemen answering

--- Do as you wish, but they considered not the smartest way to spend my time. And that FG would appreciate that time in other endeavour instead.


I took the answer as an explicit. Yes. Go ahead.
I can deal with deciding myself if that is an smart or dumb way to spend my FG time.
I do give to FG all I can, as well. And I wish it is appreciated as well.

And so, I did as I wish, and maintained FGMEMBERS and the FGDATA next with submodules
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:45 pm

PART E: It is my opinion that FGMEMBERS should be a real threat to FGADdon!

The people that develop aircrafts and the core developers should see it that way too.
Not in the terms of FGMEMBERS need to be exterminated now. Or Israel should be spun =off its ability to promote such idea.

It should endanger FGAddon in the perspective that being a feasible parallel alternative, testing should be going on wide and long.
Developers, core, others should use the FGDATA next with submodules and see how that works or not.
And promote its testing, and report findings. ==and ask questions ==


Developers should be encouraged to attempt using it, and define it that is something that will provide advantages over the system currently in place. Or not.

The possibility is open, and as muller states above we can keep all channels of communication open. Microphones? Do Curt, Torsten and others want to call me on the phone to talk? Can we sit on a positivist view and test what is a better option? We can drop the "it is too late to improve" type of thinking too.

In the other hand, we don't need to prevent the proper widespread of both alternatives. Let the users know that there are several ways to get aircraft. And several way to develop them and learn. Let them decide, too. As oppose to spoon feed them that there is an evil in Flightgear.
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:03 pm

Hooray wrote in Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:09 pm:While the wiki still seems to be offline currently, I suggest that you start preparing such an article for the wiki - I'll do the same to help summarize the standpoint communicated by long-time core developers and other contributors.


I could nt be more happy Hooray
Before I mentioned I tried to create Wiki articles without success.
Editing I have been able to do!

If you assist me in creating and populating articles, I can jump and join in to fill stuff in too

Like articles about
FGMEMBERS
Git best practices
Git for FG aircraft developers and new to git
FGDATA next , and FGDATA next with submodules :: USAGE
FGDATA next with submodules: Documenting its management

Things like that

Again, if you use some of your already busy time helping with that, I will be rather thanking you
If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it? Probably not, because if they don’t recognise their freedoms, they’ll let their freedoms fall
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby Thorsten » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:18 am

FGMEMBERs is not a fork of flightgear, or an associated parasitic software development.


Whatever you want it to be, it is technically a fork.

- it uses aircraft and development from the official repository (which makes it somewhat different from a private hangar)
- it won't be used in the release process
- it won't use the same standards for the commit process which are used for FGAddon


Saying otherwise, be it in 100 or 10.000 words, won't make it otherwise.

It is my opinion that FGMEMBERS should be a real threat to FGADdon!


It is my opinion that if that is your position, you should not be allowed to use FG infrastructure to promote it, you should do it on your own mailing list/forum/ etc.

Well, clrCoda, legoboyvdlp, sanhozay if there's any remaining doubt left why there's a fight, I fail to see how it could be pointed out more clearly.

I'm not talking about 'threatening' another repository. Curt is not. Someone else is.

I rest my case.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby clrCoda » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:50 am

Roger that. :(
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby clrCoda » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:31 pm

humor, john cleese explains perspective



and then goes on to explain ignorance and expertise



This is not pointed at any individual or intended to make light of anyone's perspective of our current situation but is intended to draw some levity to my thread.

One hopes that each viewer see's themselves and recognizes that if you come away from these videos not laughing, then there might be an internal problem hehe :)

-- My best to you all with my undying gratitude and respect ( and for those that think they ought to be offended or singled out by this attempt a humor, my apologies that you are so stupid hehe :) )

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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby Hooray » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:29 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:03 pm:Before I mentioned I tried to create Wiki articles without success.
Editing I have been able to do!

If you assist me in creating and populating articles, I can jump and join in to fill stuff in too


The wiki is back - and I suggest you check out this: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Help:Your_first_article

To start a new article, just register & log in and then open an arbitrary URL, like http://wiki.flightgear.org/FGMembers
The wiki will ask you if you want to create the article
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:31 pm

The best news of the week Hooray. Thanks
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:22 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:18 am:
FGMEMBERs is not a fork of flightgear, or an associated parasitic software development.


Whatever you want it to be, it is technically a fork.



Sorry Thorsten
But FGMEMBERS is not a fork of flightgear.
We fork the flightgear aircrafts. Which is technically more like private hangars.
We use Flight-gear simulator and infrastructure for everything. Including testing, developing, flying, and enjoying the planes.
We just develop aircraft for flightgear, and as such we just give our little something to Flightgear universe.
If you are looking for forks or wannabe forks of this fantastic software, please look elsewhere.

- it uses aircraft and development from the official repository (which makes it somewhat different from a private hangar)

Just like private hangars do

- it won't be used in the release process

Just like private hangars do

- it won't use the same standards for the commit process which are used for FGAddon

Just like private hangars do

It is my opinion that if that is your position, you should not be allowed to use FG infrastructure to promote it, you should do it on your own mailing list/forum/ etc.


Sorry again, Thorsten.
Saying that "it should be" has in English a vastly different meaning in English that is saying "it is".
Like when you look a blue wall and say: "It should be red"

FGMEMBERs and FGAddon are not a threat to each other and both currently coexist for the advantages of the FG Aircraft developers and users. When I say that "it should be a threat", I did explain as well that I mean that the core developers should take a different attitude and evaluate it as an alternative option to their current model of development of aircrafts. I think, if Curt, James, Torsten, Stuart, and whomever else is in a position and knowledge to test and evaluate the possibility of migrating aircraft development to a purely git system, as FGMEMBERs probe is possible; if they, I mean where to just take a more experimental attitude to it, I believe they may change their current position. That, it is my opinion, is a safer, easier, and better method that to look for options for "developing in pure git" but then transfer to "subversion". Such talks are currently going continually on the devel-list at the moment.


Well, clrCoda, legoboyvdlp, sanhozay if there's any remaining doubt left why there's a fight, I fail to see how it could be pointed out more clearly.

I'm not talking about 'threatening' another repository. Curt is not. Someone else is.

I rest my case.


A fight?!
If you mean a chess game I'm on.
In any other interpretation: No thanks.
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Thorsten » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:36 pm

We fork the flightgear aircrafts. Which is technically more like private hangars.


To the degree that private hangars copy developments from FGAddon, yes. So - then use your own forum for discussions as well - just like private hangars do.
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:40 pm

Some of them do. Others don't. Thanks for the invitation, thou. Flightgear infrastructure is amazing. And we don't need more. If we were, we would prob. ask Curt, Gijs, or the appropriate person for the case situation.
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