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Wiki material on ATC

ATC systems, events and procedures.

Wiki material on ATC

Postby mickybadia » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:58 pm

Hello,

Funny we ask for a forum agreeing that ATC stuff is nowhere to be suitably posted if not for ATC client support, but have apparently nothing to say in the end... Let me inaugurate this space, see if a first topic creates a little activity.

I have been browsing around the wiki pages on ATC and personally think it is quite messy. Obviously there will be many historical reasons for that and I have no intention of offending anyone, but should we not do sth about:
- most of all: the preferred link (or "main article") for ATC is a subsection (!) of the "Communications" page
- hardly any mention of ATC in the multiplayer or main pages, whereas all other sim networks have ATC vs. pilot almost as the top split of their main website
- the ATC "best practices" listing advice rather directed to pilots
...

Anyway, good night.
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby Johan G » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:26 am

Sorry if my answer is a bit long, but wiki contributions is close to my heart. :wink:

mickybadia wrote in Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:58 pm:I have been browsing around the wiki pages on ATC and personally think it is quite messy. Obviously there will be many historical reasons for that...

<rant>
Unfortunately many areas of the wiki are. I suspect some of the historical problems have been that (and often still is) that far too often wiki articles have been added:
  • Without too much consideration about an article name one could expect someone to look for, in essence making them harder to find.
  • Without categorizing them, also making them harder to find.
  • Without adding links to them from related articles, partially because they were not that easy to find.
  • Without looking at similar articles, leading to overlaps and repetition, partially because of the above reasons.
  • Without trying to fit them together with other articles, to save time while editing.
The lack of structure as well as articles with overlapping contexts have long been a pet peeve of mine, but I usually find that I do not understand a subject well enough to fix that. After some initial attempts on some subjects I realized that I would have to read several articles over and over as one article could give me questing best answered by a second article article that required reading a third article to be understandable that in turn would require reading the first one. Yet another way structure is lacking... :roll:

I have instead fucused on trying to help other editors by trying to add more structure by categorization, improving template documentation and adding more complete help pages. In addition a humongous amount of time have been spent on categorizing the ~4000 images of which only a few hundred were categorized when I registered. (In contrast to fixing the other problems, that one leaves me with gratuitous instant gratification. :wink: )

In essence, the wiki could be of much more help if more thought would be put into what people do there. To some extent wiki editors should be guided towards better contributions (though in a non-pushy way), but sometimes people just want things to be done quickly.

So many frustrations... :x
</rant>

mickybadia wrote in Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:58 pm:...I have no intention of offending anyone, but should we not do sth about...

Since you are read in a bit on the subject and have been looking through the related articles, feel free to improve them. I suspect I and/or Red Leader will pop in and help you with the style here and there (layout and typographic).

Ideally there would be articles both of reference value as well as series of articles guiding both new and old ATC:s (and to some extent pilots) step by step in various areas. All this in a logical and navigable way. An improved navigation template could probably be of big help for the readers.

If you have not read it yet, please look through the article Help:Your first article as there are many tips helping avoid the previous mentioned pitfalls (and some more). :wink:
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby mickybadia » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:03 pm

I suggest I start by taking away the automatic redirection of "Air traffic control", and simply moving to the freed page some of the scattered stuff that should go there. This will at least turn ATC into a page of its own and fill it a little without even creating new content. Then it will be easier to add related stuff on this page directly.
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby Clive2670 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:44 pm

This might be "off" what is being talked about, but, how about putting a wiki page up on the correct terminology on how to address a ATC being a pilot ( or for new ATCs the correct terminology for addressing pilots...."new and old") if "we" want to make flightgear as close to the real flying experience as possible, anyone wanting to play multiplayer needs to know at least the correct way to use the ATCs or vice versa if they run into each other during simulation. I'm lucky that I have a scanner that picks up ATC and pilots of commercial flights (EGKK EGLL just to name two) so I know the correct way to conduct a conversation with ATC from the air. Thinking about that I might well start a wiki page myself to help others, but in the mean time if someone else wants to (or has one) just say so!!!!!
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby mickybadia » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:45 pm

Clive2670 wrote in Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:44 pm:how about putting a wiki page up on the correct terminology on how to address a ATC being a pilot

Perhaps you'll want to build from this page for that. I would see a few sections moved out to a new article, e.g. current §4---or even the whole article renamed. It really is less of an "ATC tutorial" than it addesses what you are in fact proposing here.
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby CaptB » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:28 am

I would help with the ATC wiki, it's just I am not convinced people will pay attention. Even on VATSIM where I control, many "pilots" have a very vague idea on what to do even though they are provided with good documentation.
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby Clive2670 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:40 pm

CaptB wrote in Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:28 am:I would help with the ATC wiki, it's just I am not convinced people will pay attention. Even on VATSIM where I control, many "pilots" have a very vague idea on what to do even though they are provided with good documentation.

Fair point CaptB, because I've just thought, how many people read the wiki pages!!!! I think it is only really commited Flightgear pilots that do!!! Yes it is a "simulator game" and it is only a very small minority that actually like to use it and make it as true to real life as possible, The rest no doubt just see ATCs as a pain in the butt and an inconviniance when they come across one online on multiplayer, And also I know that some pilots just go out of their way to "find" an ATC that is trying to make it as life like as possible and go and annoy them. I have seen pilots completely ignoring ATCjomo before at EDDM, other that just fly around his airspace hounding him and other pilots, I know there is an "ignore" button but really we shouldn't have to use it!
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby Clive2670 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:42 pm

mickybadia wrote in Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:45 pm:
Clive2670 wrote in Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:44 pm:how about putting a wiki page up on the correct terminology on how to address a ATC being a pilot

Perhaps you'll want to build from this page for that. I would see a few sections moved out to a new article, e.g. current §4---or even the whole article renamed. It really is less of an "ATC tutorial" than it addesses what you are in fact proposing here.

I have seen this page and will look in detail to see if there is anything worth adding to it, but it does look quite comprehensive
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby hardba11 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:43 am

hello,

considering the following case : a pilot is lost and need assistance, he contacts atc to reach the closest airport.
I've created an atc feature for that : viewtopic.php?f=18&t=34137

I don't know the correct atc messages told to the pilot in this case (a kind of emergency).
Does somebody knows where could I find the correct ATC phraseology ?

thanks :)
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby CaptB » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:48 am

hardba11 wrote in Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:43 am:hello,

considering the following case : a pilot is lost and need assistance, he contacts atc to reach the closest airport.
I've created an atc feature for that : viewtopic.php?f=18&t=34137

I don't know the correct atc messages told to the pilot in this case (a kind of emergency).
Does somebody knows where could I find the correct ATC phraseology ?

thanks :)
Nico


An IFR pilot does not get lost unless he's got a failure of his instruments and/or his co passenger the pet hamster ate his charts. In such a case he can request a heading/vector or information about a navaid(if instruments available) that may help him out.

A VFR pilot can get disoriented and if flying in controlled airspace he may request heading for nearest airport or his destination if possible which he will the fly taking according to VMC.

In general a correct phraseology would be something like, heading for EKYT 180( 20 track miles) or aerodrome to your south east, 5nm, or aerodrome at your 6, 5nm
Last edited by CaptB on Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby hardba11 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:58 pm

thanks for your reply :)
you are saying me there is no phraseology to guide a pilot until he is aligned with the runway ?
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby CaptB » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:44 pm

hardba11 wrote in Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:58 pm:thanks for your reply :)
you are saying me there is no phraseology to guide a pilot until he is aligned with the runway ?


I just wrote you the phraseology given. It's pretty standard, there is no special phraseology or words for this situation. All the rest from there is also standard operations and IFR of VFR phraseology same that is used for any other traffic to get them into the appropriate STAR/instrument approach(IFR) or traffic circuit(VFR) depending on the situation and airspace/destination(AFIS has no control)

From an ATC point of view it's just like handling normal traffic with standard phraseology, same toolset.

We can talk about this on mumble some day if you like, just PM.
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Re: Wiki material on ATC

Postby mickybadia » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:03 pm

For IFR you already have the answer: vectors! They are given according to whatever intentions the pilot stated.
If you are talking VFR, I think you are expecting too much authority from ATC, and assuming too little responsibility from the pilot. As CaptB told you the messages will inform of relative position like "the field is at your 250, 20 miles", but not issue vectors because the responsibility is that of the pilot. For example she should not fly into clouds, whereas radars won't show them.

Also given your goal here, note that for the same reasons, they would not "bring you safely down" to the runway. At best they would stay in contact until you see the field so that they don't leave you lost, but then certainly invite you to contact the destination field (helping you with the frequency), since you would have to talk to them prior to arrival. That is even if it is uncontrolled.
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