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FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

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FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Tue May 27, 2014 11:09 am

The Italian group of FligtGear now is starting to try to "build" a FIAT G-91R Gina. We are looking for documentation, manuals, drawings on which set up the 3D model and the FDM, let even those who want to give us a helping hand :)
Thank
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby gooneybird » Tue May 27, 2014 11:44 am

I have a set of old scale drawings If they will help but will need a day or two to find and scan them.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Tue May 27, 2014 2:59 pm

Thank you, there is no rush, any information will be very useful!.

I find this link:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=37813.0

Variants:

G.91 – Prototypes and pre-production aircraft.
G.91R/1 – Light attack/reconnaissance aircraft, fitted with modified nose housing three cameras. (AMI)
G.91R/1A – 4 X Browning M3 12,7 mm (AMI)
G.91R/1B – 2 X 30 mm DEFA cannons. (AMI)
G.91R/3 – 2 X 30 mm DEFA cannons. (Luftwaffe)

General characteristics:

Crew: 1
Length: 10.3 m (33 ft 9 in)
Wingspan: 8.56 m (28 ft 1 in)
Height: 4.0 m (13 ft 1 in)
Wing area: 16.4 m² (177 ft²)
Empty weight: 3,100 kg (6,830 lb)
Loaded weight: 5,440 kg (11,990 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 5,500 kg (12,100 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Bristol Siddeley Orpheus 803 turbojet, 22.2 kN (5,000 lbf)

Performance

Maximum speed: 1,075 km/h (580 kn, 668 mph)
Range: 1,150 km (621 nmi, 715 mi)
Service ceiling: 13,100 m (43,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 30 m/s (6,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 331 kg/m² (67.8 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.42

Armament

Guns:
4× 12.7 mm (0.50 in) M3 Browning machine guns (AMI G.91R/1A);
2× 30 mm (1.18 in) DEFA cannons (AMI G.91R/1B - Luftwaffe G.91R/3)

Hardpoints :
4× under-wing pylon stations holding up to maximum of 1,814 kg/4,000 lb of payload for G.91Y, 680 kg/1,500 lb for G.91R/3 and 500 kg/1,100 lb for G.91R/1

Rockets:
2× Matra rocket pods (each with 19× SNEB 68 mm rockets); or
18× Hispano SURA R80 80 mm rockets

Bombs: A wide variety of air-to-ground ordnance including unguided iron bombs, gun pods in addition to auxiliary drop tanks for extended range.

----- IMPORTANT -----

It would be important to also find some comment from a pilot who has effectively piloted that aircraft type.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Johan G » Tue May 27, 2014 3:32 pm

Oh. That is a good choice of aircraft to model. A quick Google image search reveals that there are good drawings available as well as both flight and maintenance manuals. (The Russian ones are have a lot of detail and might be good otherwise as well.)

For the manuals I would recommend a look at avialogs.com.

One hint when modelling: You can never have too many reference photos from those strange angles where interpreting the drawings is not so easy. ;)
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby gooneybird » Tue May 27, 2014 4:06 pm

Here's the drawings, It's a big file (8mb), It was scanned from an old newspaper sized aviation weekly that was around in the 1970/80's and It needed 6 A4 scans to do it. You may have to download it to get the full sized version.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/t3lzylt87hazdvy/aaa-003854_stitch.jpg
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby daveculp » Tue May 27, 2014 4:20 pm

You could also start with an existing model: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12562954/G91R1A.zip

This might be convertible with Blender, assuming a matching Blender add-on exits. As for license you can try to get the author to GPL it, or you can use a CC license that is at least as strict as the original license.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Tue May 27, 2014 5:01 pm

I think it might be useful to think about how to divide the parts of the aircraft, this should allow you to better understand the organization of the project. In this way, you can better organize your 3D designs and colors surface. The party position can be combined with the constraints in XML.

Image
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Tue May 27, 2014 5:11 pm

Image
Example of book: "Catalogo nomenclatore illustrato velivolo fiat g91t3" pag. 18

I think it's better to redo the entire 3D design, because if it approaches with the design of the separate parts is much more comfortable. Then there is the problem of the names of the objects that should be logical enough to allow proper management. The use of incorrect names poses lots of problems. It may be convenient to use the manual of the parties.

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/italy/fiat/g-91/1f-g91-t3-4-catalogo-nomenclatore-illustrato-velivolo-fiat-g91t3.html
Last edited by abassign on Wed May 28, 2014 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Wed May 28, 2014 5:34 am

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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Sat May 31, 2014 10:07 pm

* I was able to download the manuals of the G91, through the website http://www.avialogs.com/. Studying the instrument panel of the G91, I noticed a tool called "Directional indicator type PHI MK.3B" (n. 3), what is this gauge? Is there a manual of this instrument?

* Does anyone have a manual that explains the use of the instrument panel gauges of NATO fighter, in the year 60 '?

* I am looking for a technical dossier of G 91R3 or 4 to write the FDM in JSBSim, if someone can provide me, I'd be happy :wink:

Thank for all :D

Image
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby bigstones » Sat May 31, 2014 10:37 pm

This picture in the AMI Facebook group has >100 commenters, and some say nostalgically (and realistically, by their age) that they flew the Gina a lot. Have you considered stalking some of them?

edit: forgot the link!!!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Johan G » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:14 am

abassign wrote in Sat May 31, 2014 10:07 pm:Studying the instrument panel of the G91, I noticed a tool called "Directional indicator type PHI MK.3B" (n. 3), what is this gauge? Is there a manual of this instrument?

You can find it in at least some of the flight manuals. You only have to look at the right place. :wink:

It seems to be an instrument connected to a dead reckoning computer and a doppler radar that together makes it possible to autonomously navigate (i.e. without radio navigation etc.) using bearing and distance to one of five pre-programmed points at a time.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:27 pm

I found in the manual: http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/ai ... 91-r3.html page: 105-109 (4.4-4-8) information describing the operation of the PHI gauge.

This is a drawing that shows this tool: Image

It is a gauge that allows you to travel a route with 5 points, one of which is the reference (calibration). You can put other items with a manual procedure.

The instrument uses a doppler radar (8.8 GHz) to determine the deviation from the ground due to the wind. The computer calculates the deviation and the true speed relative to the ground. If you do not want to use the doppler radar, you can enter the speed and direction of the wind through the "Wind Unit" Gauge. The distance is calculated by means of an analog integrator composed of a disc and a ball resolver.
There is also a "Gyrosyn compass" which is a directional gyro slaved to magnetic north. The magnetic north is obtained using a special "flux valve" signal which detects magnetic north.
The distance is shown in the center of the instrument is the number of miles (max. 500) to arrive at the "station" (max 4 station). When the station is reached, the "bearing pointer" rotates 180 °

Unfortunately I do not have the technical manual of the instrument, I can not know the accuracy of the instrument, but I think we can simulate using the data produced by JSBSim to which is added a signal of "noise" that simulates the inaccuracy of Doppler radar and integrator.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:50 am

This web site contains many images of the original instruments of the FIAT G91, it is very interesting and allows to have a good idea of how they are made the main gauges in the instrument panel.

http://cockpitfest.fr.yuku.com/topic/276/G91T-panel-restoration
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:13 pm

In this web address I found the manual of PHI in use with the FIAT G91: "Canada Position and homing indicator Mk.2."
Finally are explained in a comprehensive manner the principle of operation of this instrument. It is certainly remarkable to think that in 1955 it could build navigation devices so sophisticated electromechanical components using only! I think that for History enthusiasts and aviation simulation of aircraft, during the years 50 'and 60', the reading of this manual will be very useful.

http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/AD0091920

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