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AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Thorsten » Thu May 15, 2014 11:03 am

Is there a reason why this is not included by default with FG?


Yes, a decision by the core devel community that FG should remain a civilian simulation and not include combat sim features.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Rick Ace » Thu May 15, 2014 11:46 pm

Thorsten wrote in Thu May 15, 2014 11:03 am:a decision by the core devel community that FG should remain a civilian simulation


A good decision that will make Flightgear a truly international software. ;)
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Hooray » Thu May 15, 2014 11:56 pm

Unless I am not aware of some more recent behind-the-scenes discussion, I don't believe this to be the case - according to public devel list discussions, most of the senior core developers were actually supportive of developing and including such functionality, as long as it remained entirely optional, people just weren't too eager to develop things in C++ space just for combat, but fully realizing that most building blocks would also come in handy in a civilian context.

There've been roughly a dozen attempts at integrating combat functionality into FG, and most of them failed for other reasons - this one worked out, exactly because it didn't depend on the developer community, i.e. because it's a scripting space "add-on". Which kinda makes sense given that patches typically will take months to be reviewed, and given that combat development has never been a priority.

Even long-before bombable, we've had combat aircraft, including functional weapons.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby HJ1AN » Tue May 20, 2014 8:41 am

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 15, 2014 8:36 am:I believe it is part of an option in the View menu now. Well at least in 3.0 it has it.



Oops, I confused it with something else. :oops:
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby imagio » Tue May 20, 2014 6:45 pm

Hooray wrote in Thu May 15, 2014 11:56 pm:Unless I am not aware of some more recent behind-the-scenes discussion, I don't believe this to be the case - according to public devel list discussions, most of the senior core developers were actually supportive of developing and including such functionality, as long as it remained entirely optional, people just weren't too eager to develop things in C++ space just for combat, but fully realizing that most building blocks would also come in handy in a civilian context.

There've been roughly a dozen attempts at integrating combat functionality into FG, and most of them failed for other reasons - this one worked out, exactly because it didn't depend on the developer community, i.e. because it's a scripting space "add-on". Which kinda makes sense given that patches typically will take months to be reviewed, and given that combat development has never been a priority.

Even long-before bombable, we've had combat aircraft, including functional weapons.


Including this functionality in the default FG distribution and advertising it as a feature might attract new people to FG. Also by including a default implementation of combat it might focus future development effort in one place rather than adding to those dozen failed attempts you mentioned. Things like this are the really cool and innovative stuff that makes FG stand out from commercial sims. It is a shame IMO to see it hidden away on the forum instead of shown off to the world at large!
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Hooray » Tue May 20, 2014 7:12 pm

the code would need some restructuring so that it is turned into a fully optional feauture (i.e. Nasal submodule), and there's other work necessary to even make inclusion feasible.
But like Thorsten said, first of all one would need to discuss this probably, so that people committing this, don't end up causing irritation - and flug is not much around these days, but he did say several times that he also would have loved to see it included. But as others have stated, most people are hesitant - because this combines a number of controversial issues, i.e. a non-trivial scripting space subsystem, and combat support itself obviously.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Necolatis » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:32 pm

About the multiplayer properties.

1st, what are they needed for? Isn't the submodels enough, with their name and impact reports? A trigger cannot tell if an opponent is hit anyway.

2nd, when using multiple triggers for MP, how does bombable know how many of those ints are used for triggers? Does it count the number of weapons defined and assume that's the amount of triggers needed. For example using int 10 - 14 for triggers, and int 15 for something else unrelated to bombable, how do I show bombable int 15 is not a trigger.

3rd, And why the string 9, think strings are disabled for MP, so what point does it have?
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby AndersG » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:07 pm

Necolatis wrote in Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:32 pm:3rd, And why the string 9, think strings are disabled for MP, so what point does it have?


Strings are not disabled over MP. As the only supported variable length type they are a bit dangerous, though - but they offer a way to use space in the packets "on demand" - and "only" send the empty string (it is not as small as one could hope) otherwise.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Bomber » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:13 am

Thorsten wrote in Thu May 15, 2014 11:03 am:
Is there a reason why this is not included by default with FG?


Yes, a decision by the core devel community that FG should remain a civilian simulation and not include combat sim features.



So if that's true the blarny that FG welcomes combat development is codswallop.

I think these 'core' developers that make this decision behind invite only closed forum doors of an open source SIM should be ashamed of themselves.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby flyingfisch » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:21 pm

Someone should fork FG and make a full-blown Combat Simulator out of it, with campaigns and stuff....
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Bomber » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:30 pm

Some group... It's too much for a single person.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Hooray » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:41 pm

you primarily need to find a committer to commit this, not necessarily a core developer - but the real pain is discussing this on the devel list, which is not just "courtesy" but probably a prerequisiste. I don't see any real obstacles though, just a lot of inertia. I don't quite agree that something like this should be kept separate. Maintenance would be a pain.
However, TheTom & Zakalawe have been working on a Canvas-based aircraft installer for 3.2 using a "new" catalog metadata system that is XML-based.
This feature will also support 3rd party "hangars" - and it is feasible, and even foreseeable, that the same feature could be extended to allow custom "mods" to be deployed and installed much more easily.
We'd just need to formalize how such 3rd party "add-ons" are to be developed, structured and organized.
Bombable should require very little to be deployed like this, and it could make the add-on accessible to hundreds, or even thousands, of FG users who would no longer need to be very FG savvy.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Necolatis » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:21 pm

Found this in my console, not sure what I did to trigger it:

Nasal runtime error: non-objects have no members
at d:/ProgramFiles/Development/Git/fgdata/Nasal/bombable.nas, line 288
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby PhilB » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:30 am

Hi all,

I am new to flightgear and new to Bombable, coming from CFS. This is great stuff but I need a little help. I can fire guns with all the Bombable aircrafts included in the package. But I am just unable to fire guns with other aircrafts, like the hurricane or the spit II or the spit IX. I made sure the trigger parameter in the submodel file is the same as for the bombable aircrafts, I followed the instructions in the wiki (although I understand this is more to add AI) but no matter what, I can't shoot. I have been through the forum without finding an answer, can anyone help me with this? Thanks
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby hvengel » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:34 pm

This probably should be in it's own thread since this is not a bombable issue.

In addition you did not give us enough info to help you out. Are you using a joystick button or the keyboard? Have you configured the keyboard or joystick to toggle the trigger property? It is not uncommon for aircraft to not setup a keyboard mapping for the trigger and most joystick configs use the "trigger" button for brakes and will need to be reconfigured if you want the trigger to be the trigger.
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