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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby Lydiot » Thu May 01, 2014 5:45 pm

Hooray wrote in Thu May 01, 2014 5:16 pm:you cannot expect people to play by the "rules" without also having an option to get rid of somebody who's just there to cause havok.


But it seemed like Jomo was looking for a different option, in which case (again) the technical intricacies of it all were superfluous.

Hooray wrote in Thu May 01, 2014 5:16 pm:you can have a lot of fun by having 5-10 users who are all motivated to play by the book, rather than hosting the whole thing on a public server where any new FG user may end up at - remember Bomber's sandbox analogy ? It isn't far-fetched, but given the way the system works, it isn't feasible to enforce things widely for the time being, thus you need to be create - e.g. by coming up with your own private environment (address/port) and sharing this privately, e.g. by eMail/PM.


If this is true, then the answer to Jomo is simply "private server". I think that suffices rather than embarking on a long string of technical posts, don't you?

Hooray wrote in Thu May 01, 2014 5:16 pm:This is not a problem specific to FG, there are much more popular "games" suffering from the same problem, and not even "kicking/banning" works very well (think dynamic IPs or proxies, or even just multiple accounts)


That is probably true. I don't disagree.

I notice that you didn't address anything I said in that first post, which is interesting since you said I made virtually no contribution on-topic.
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby Hooray » Thu May 01, 2014 5:50 pm

sorry, time is finite obviously, and we have wasted enough time here already - and in fact, this particular debate has been coming up for years, even on the devel list, even long before you registered your account here - so I cannot possibly rehash everything that's been previously discussed.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby Bomber » Thu May 01, 2014 6:20 pm

Hooray wrote in Thu May 01, 2014 5:50 pm:sorry, time is finite obviously, and we have wasted enough time here already - and in fact, this particular debate has been coming up for years, even on the devel list, even long before you registered your account here - so I cannot possibly rehash everything that's been previously discussed.


Look you've not been here long enough... it's already been discussed years ago and now we've moved onto discussing things that we've not discussed before...

So do please ensure that you post about things that have never been posted about before,as you're boring Hooray.
If you're unsure as to what you can post please read the forum in its entirety or post a PM to him and he'll get back to you with a 20 page essay as to why you've no understanding of any of the issues which have already been talked about before...

I do hope I've made myself clear.... or as big a smart arse as I can be...

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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Thu May 01, 2014 6:35 pm

It is really interesting to see how a Forum-Header with a question for a unique MPuser problem can turn into a war about the principles of FGFS design -- while the header remains. So - because I initiated that, let me try to get some conclusion out of if:
I actually see 3 directions this communication took:

1) My original intention was: What can you do against a "hostile takeover" or "trolls" or "non cooperative guests", or just someone misusing MP-events for showing off his lack of abilities.
    My problem is: As an ATC for controlled flying you cannot just ignore an aggressor/misuser - because he may crash into others and/or confuse the whole group by wrong advises and bad language. And there is always some other guy trying to convince the "outsider" that he is doing wrong -- what is the worse you can do - because you only end up in a fruitless discussion - disturbing the group even more.

    My conclusion to this is: You must neglect him/her! But that is not really that easy. At EDDF we will continue to react like:
    • someone warns all participants
    • every participant neglects the intruder in his/her "MP-PilotsList",
    • ATC neglects in the OpenRadar FlightStrips - so the "outsider" remains just as a shadow
    • with mumble everybody may even switch off the voice-input (with FGCOM you cannot)!
2: The discussion took a turn to very unique requests for unique groups (military, airline, gaming, simulating, reality, etc.).
    Requiring at least verified LogIn's, different MPservers, etc. That is definitely something I would hate most of all! Any ATC, and also the very most of all people that are using MP, do not use MP just for a "bombing mission" or "simulating airlines" or similar) - but they want to meet others having a hobby as they do, independent of:
    • airplane model (e.g. we have everything at EDDF, from "Geb.Wright" -> c172p -> Conny -> Concord -> B747 -> B1B -> F16 -> etc. - with only one problem: Some small planes may have to wait till the biggies give some room! (and a second problem: My Aircraft directory contains today 425 models - and growing each month -- just to be able to show the models as they come in or depart! And my list of visitors is >1500 UIDs!)
    • any skill-level above the very basic == being able to control alt, hdg, speed! (Nobody starts as champion - but you cannot become a champion if you cannot improve your skills with others).
    As I see it during my 5 years in FGFS (and prior FSX): FGFS is constantly improving (I hope over the next 100 years and more!) - for in between there are many FlightGames that can be used for unique types of planes, sceneries, missions, etc. For ATCing you might use an AddOn like the now OpenRadar (that is a StandAlone in Java - just using FGFS MPdata). You might even use FGFS-models to be controlled by the very professional and realistic working VATSIM group - and meet people there using even different Simulators. But I believe the FGFS as such is and should remain a Simulator for everybody and everything - even cars (e.g. FollowMe), submarines, spaceships, etc.). So it may not always be the best suited for a unique guy or group. But if that is not good enough (yet): Take the unique packages (and pay for it!).

    It also seems easy to build up a unique MPserver for any unique group - THAT IS NOT LINKED TO THE COMMON MPserver-Network! Then that group (INSTALLING and PAYING it) can do whatever they want at high speeds. I am not an MPserver expert - but seems to me we do not need to add more MPserves working in parallel (some with just 1 to 2 "local client"s). Looks to me like the "correlation work" between those serves and all users is already now becoming difficult: If I want to see from time to time who is in my area, I have to switch from 1 server to another to get a true, complete picture build up again - after some seconds! (See my movies with embedded views to the whole FGFS-MP world - that may even convince some people that there are more MPusers than they believe!).

    And for those who are relatively new in FGFS-MP: If you look onto the whole MP-area you now will see up to 90 targets concurrently - while it was a max of 30 concurrent targets 2 years ago (and then there was a hang)! If you look some more times you will see, that (especially since OpenRadar is available) the usage picks up dramatically: From the 90 targets at least 50 are in Central Europe, and sometimes 10 of them are actually under control of EDDF. (Yes I know: Right now is the Springtime month of May, i.e. most human beings have other priorities than mechanical things (like planes!))

    So MP is improving constantly - even as its basic architecture gets to its limits now! But it will never never reach a level that everybody (living at a unique point of time) is completely satisfied - that is usual for things developed by human beings! And I hope we will find more people to actually help improving and less that just complain.
3: To the end we also have the very big, most important philosophical Question:
    There are those who propose we just need a (as we say in German "EierLegendeWollMilchSau" =) "EggsLayingWoolMilkHog". e.g.: If "jomo" just would change his "demeanor" against his guests/customers - then every problem would be solved! Really? If you check the world wide MPmap then EDDF is not the least visited one! To the contrary: I believe the EDDF-Triangle did give quite an impulse - so that now you see building up more and more "Controlled Flying Centers" e.g. in GB, Italy, Eastern Europe, Brazil, Canada, etc. (sorry: I do not count the most visited KSFO as an controlled area!).

    But if somebody means it is "childish" to protect a, since many years active, MPevent against a guy that just jumps into the group, having not much knowledge about anything - but just claims the "overall control" without any prior or future negotiations or learning --> that is an absolutely NoNo for me! Every kid learns very early in the kindergarten that there are some basic rules/behaviors if you want to join a group of people. What that guy does/did will destroy all MP-events! And very frankly: I will never accept people that behave like that - and surely never cooperate with them. (You may revisit the movies
    http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/201 ... 905-44.ogv and
    http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/201 ... 849-15.ogv
    Do you really want to support such behavior and language for the future of MP?)

To sum up my cry for help in the header:
Please consider
  • A ATC has to deal with anybody getting into his range - a pilot can choose the ATC he wants/likes
  • Different opinions about everything existed before jomo was born - and probably continues to exist even after that jomo will be gone forever!
  • But MP, in the role of "human relationship", will last forever - even if there never will be a single human the same as some other.
Something that keeps me up: The very most of the people I "neglected" did come back days or weeks later, again and again (and force me be to cancel my private remark to never serve him/she again)! And even if they do not say "thanks for.." - they are there, behave different, and contribute to our goal: Controlled flying.

Thank you all for your attention and comments - it was very interesting - indeed!
jomo / ATCjomo + EDDFjo1 + EDDFjo2
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby Bomber » Thu May 01, 2014 8:25 pm

Nice post Jomo..

2: The discussion took a turn to very unique requests for unique groups (military, airline, gaming, simulating, reality, etc.).


I apologies if it came across as a hijack, it wasn't intended, however I think you've misunderstood No.2 as it was intended.

My perspective is Military online simulation, I wont apologies for that because it brings something to the party... and I'm pretty sure that you guys in the ATC environment are Angels to each other compared to how quickly it can get out of hand in a competitive environment with 'uber this, uber that !'. To me you're the thin end of the wedge and when it comes to us... everythings blown out of proportion.

I'm not after stopping you guys from having an open arena with B17 and F18 and 747's all flying next to each other.... heck I like that... But equally there's a time and a place for a more controlled environment.... And actually yours is a controlled environment just not as extreme as a combat environment with a restricted era planeset and FDM integrity checking...

Hooray says it's a waste of time talking about solving this with technology and if enough people think that way he's right..... So your only solution at present is to ignore.

But hold on..... you play in a hashed together environment and you've made it work for you, and if a developer was to read about your issues and consider them a reasonable use of his/her development time, something could get done... However I find this comment from Hooray about MP frustrating.

We would be in the same situation if we suddenly had thousands of former FSX/XP users here - we couldn't handle the sheer volume, and we couldn't get anything done.


So by turning a blind eye and working on other things, FG devs keep the functionality of MP at a poor level, because heaven help us if it became popular....

I'm thinking that if just one of those thousands of former FSX/XP users suddenly turning up has the skills to improve MP then isn't that a good thing, and things could get done....

This attitude is where a problem lies.... FG complains there isn't enough developers but seems to want to deter MP users, who in time could be valuable developers...

It's the main problem I had "FG doesn't deter combat simulation, just look at bombable...". But FG doesn't welcome it either and you soon pick up that vibe, and because of it there's no nucleus of development occurring... and clearly the same is true with MP.
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby Lydiot » Thu May 01, 2014 8:28 pm

Nothing is ever your fault Jomo, I think we can all agree on that point.

The only question I have for you then is why do you even bother? It's clear that you "own" EDDF and will never change the way you behave, so why this thread?

Feed your narcissism? Mission accomplished I guess.
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby BIZX » Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm

Lydiot wrote in Thu May 01, 2014 8:28 pm:Nothing is ever your fault Jomo, I think we can all agree on that point.

The only question I have for you then is why do you even bother? It's clear that you "own" EDDF and will never change the way you behave, so why this thread?

Feed your narcissism? Mission accomplished I guess.


I'm sorry, but I find this extremely insulting. If you think he does this to satiate some deep-seated narcissism, you don't even understand the principle of it. He's not doing this to own the airport. He's not doing this to annoy people for his own pleasure. He is doing this for the benefit of other pilots who wish to fly in a controlled environment.

If you have a beef with that, go fly at KSFO instead.
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby Lydiot » Fri May 02, 2014 5:50 pm

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm:
Lydiot wrote in Thu May 01, 2014 8:28 pm:Nothing is ever your fault Jomo, I think we can all agree on that point.

The only question I have for you then is why do you even bother? It's clear that you "own" EDDF and will never change the way you behave, so why this thread?

Feed your narcissism? Mission accomplished I guess.


I'm sorry, but I find this extremely insulting.


Ok.

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm:If you think he does this to satiate some deep-seated narcissism, you don't even understand the principle of it.


Did you ever consider that perhaps it's you don't understand? If you really give a crap about this, and it seems as if you do seeing that you felt my comment was insulting, then address what I said on-topic in this thread (I guess the first one or two posts) as well as in the thread I linked to earlier. Quote me and show where I'm incorrect and we can discuss that. If you don't do that you're just venting, which is exactly what Jomo was doing, which is exactly what I was questioning: What's the point? You're venting. So what? How does that help?

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm: He's not doing this to own the airport.


When he runs the airport as an ATC he wants things to be done a certain way, and in no other way. If someone doesn't comply his demeanor is one that is seemingly not infrequently perceived as unnecessarily rude. Let's put quotes around "own" and you should see what my point is (note that I said "should", not "will").

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm: He's not doing this to annoy people for his own pleasure.


I absolutely agree. I don't think his expression has malicious intent at all. I never said that so I don't understand why you're bringing it up at all.

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm:He is doing this for the benefit of other pilots who wish to fly in a controlled environment.


Like anyone else he's clearly enjoying doing this. He's not getting paid, right? And it surely isn't altruism. I think anyone who contributes here does it because it brings a sense of satisfaction. Why else would someone do it? Does it benefit some other pilots? Sure. One doesn't exclude the other.

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm:If you have a beef with that, go fly at KSFO instead.


If I have a beef with what? How about you give up the strawman tactic and address something I actually say instead?
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby BIZX » Fri May 02, 2014 6:14 pm

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:50 pm:Did you ever consider that perhaps it's you don't understand? If you really give a crap about this, and it seems as if you do seeing that you felt my comment was insulting, then address what I said on-topic in this thread (I guess the first one or two posts) as well as in the thread I linked to earlier. Quote me and show where I'm incorrect and we can discuss that. If you don't do that you're just venting, which is exactly what Jomo was doing, which is exactly what I was questioning: What's the point? You're venting. So what? How does that help?


OK then. Here you go.

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:50 pm:
BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm: He's not doing this to own the airport.


When he runs the airport as an ATC he wants things to be done a certain way, and in no other way. If someone doesn't comply his demeanor is one that is seemingly not infrequently perceived as unnecessarily rude. Let's put quotes around "own" and you should see what my point is (note that I said "should", not "will").


Walk a mile in his shoes. Here he is, dealing with 4 or 5 pilots at once, on 2 or 3 different runways, trying to follow realistic procedures, and here comes someone prancing around the airport, disrupting other operations, without even bothering to contact him. Do you really think he has the time to put up with people like that?

Yes, his demeanor come across as rude to some people, but there's a reason for it.

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:50 pm:
BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm: He's not doing this to annoy people for his own pleasure.


I absolutely agree. I don't think his expression has malicious intent at all. I never said that so I don't understand why you're bringing it up at all.


There are people who sit in OR, randomly insulting and harassing pilots who come within their range - or, to put it in simpler terms, trolling.

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:50 pm:
BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm:He is doing this for the benefit of other pilots who wish to fly in a controlled environment.


Like anyone else he's clearly enjoying doing this. He's not getting paid, right? And it surely isn't altruism. I think anyone who contributes here does it because it brings a sense of satisfaction. Why else would someone do it? Does it benefit some other pilots? Sure. One doesn't exclude the other.


Yes, of course he enjoys doing it. Do you think the Triangle would exist if he didn't? And as for satisfaction...yes, it brings a sense of satisfaction. The satisfaction of giving other pilots who enjoy flying in controlled areas somewhere to do just that. The satisfaction of making other's experiences in FG that much better.

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:50 pm:
BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm:If you have a beef with that, go fly at KSFO instead.


If I have a beef with what? How about you give up the strawman tactic and address something I actually say instead?


If you have a problem with why or how he controls EDDF, don't fly in his airspace. It's just that simple.

End of tirade.
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby Lydiot » Fri May 02, 2014 6:35 pm

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 6:14 pm:Walk a mile in his shoes. Here he is, dealing with 4 or 5 pilots at once, on 2 or 3 different runways, trying to follow realistic procedures, and here comes someone prancing around the airport, disrupting other operations, without even bothering to contact him. Do you really think he has the time to put up with people like that?

Yes, his demeanor come across as rude to some people, but there's a reason for it.


There's not always a good reason for it in my opinion. Sometimes you could argue that there is, sometimes not. I maintain that his demeanor while possibly warranted in some cases is completely unwarranted in others, and is sure to make "enemies" who will then return to cause these problems he's now complaining about. He and you can both ignore this and pretend it isn't true, but I think it is. And as long as that's the case then some people will come back to (not) his aiport just to piss him off because of their previous encounter.

Imagine a new user who has absolutely no idea that the area is under "tight control" who flies into it and then Jomo acts in a way that is perceived as hostile and harsh, what do you suppose that person is likely to feel about Jomo, about the community and about the FG MP experience? Some will come back and cause problems.

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 6:14 pm:There are people who sit in OR, randomly insulting and harassing pilots who come within their range - or, to put it in simpler terms, trolling.


I agree with that and I addressed it earlier. What's your point? Why are you bringing this up?

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 6:14 pm:of course he enjoys doing it. Do you think the Triangle would exist if he didn't? And as for satisfaction...yes, it brings a sense of satisfaction. The satisfaction of giving other pilots who enjoy flying in controlled areas somewhere to do just that. The satisfaction of making other's experiences in FG that much better.


Right. I agree. But that doesn't mean that what I said isn't true. Intent is one thing, outcome is another.

BIZX wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm:If you have a problem with why or how he controls EDDF, don't fly in his airspace. It's just that simple.


Was I the one who started this thread? I don't fly in "his" airspace for various reasons actually, but he is complaining about how people behave, not me.

Like I said; you reap what you sow in some cases. Right now he's just venting. How many of the people he talked about in the OP who are a problem at his airport do you think read this thread and change their behavior because of it? It's just venting. Fine. Vent. But it just comes off as narcissistic and pretentious if he's not willing to consider that perhaps not everything he does is flawless. He might as well make a PSA telling people what to do rather than phrase it like a quest for input when it's just going to get ignored.
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby BIZX » Fri May 02, 2014 6:54 pm

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 6:35 pm:There's not always a good reason for it in my opinion. Sometimes you could argue that there is, sometimes not. I maintain that his demeanor while possibly warranted in some cases is completely unwarranted in others, and is sure to make "enemies" who will then return to cause these problems he's now complaining about. He and you can both ignore this and pretend it isn't true, but I think it is. And as long as that's the case then some people will come back to (not) his aiport just to piss him off because of their previous encounter.

Imagine a new user who has absolutely no idea that the area is under "tight control" who flies into it and then Jomo acts in a way that is perceived as hostile and harsh, what do you suppose that person is likely to feel about Jomo, about the community and about the FG MP experience? Some will come back and cause problems.


I see your point here. What I'm saying is that, most of the time, he really doesn't have time to deal with things like this. There are other, better places for newbies to go then a busy controlled airport (yes I realize the irony of what I'm saying, given how KSFO is also a starting point for ATCs).

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 6:35 pm:I agree with that and I addressed it earlier. What's your point? Why are you bringing this up?


That isn't actually my point. It's just an example (sadly) of reasons why people may try ATCing.

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 6:35 pm:Right. I agree. But that doesn't mean that what I said isn't true. Intent is one thing, outcome is another.


Exactly. Some times the outcome and the intent don't quite mesh. That's not anyone's fault. That's life.

Lydiot wrote in Fri May 02, 2014 6:35 pm:Was I the one who started this thread? I don't fly in "his" airspace for various reasons actually, but he is complaining about how people behave, not me.

Like I said; you reap what you sow in some cases. Right now he's just venting. How many of the people he talked about in the OP who are a problem at his airport do you think read this thread and change their behavior because of it? It's just venting. Fine. Vent. But it just comes off as narcissistic and pretentious if he's not willing to consider that perhaps not everything he does is flawless. He might as well make a PSA telling people what to do rather than phrase it like a quest for input when it's just going to get ignored.


He's venting and complaining because he's sick of people driving him - and his traffic - crazy with their lack of clue and/or overabundance of malice. Could it be perceived as narcissistic? Yes. Is it in my opinion? No.

Now then. I've stated my point. I have no desire to argue with you...not a straw man tactic, just a fact. As far as I'm concerned, my role in this cacophonic symphony of accusations and tirades is completed.

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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby cobolt » Sun May 04, 2014 6:25 pm

I had my first "contact" with jomo just today. I don't understand why he is this(!!) harsh (even though i apologized for my unintended action), resulting in beeing set to Ignore the whole evening/event.

"no service in EDDF for you".
Same applies to whole triangle (EDDF, ELLX, EDDS) - no FG for me tonight. im just about to switch to x-plane. this makes me this angry. :evil: :!: :!: :!:
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby sanhozay » Sun May 04, 2014 7:46 pm

What did you do?
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby cobolt » Sun May 04, 2014 8:07 pm

Being on MP w/o knowing and away from keyboard afterwards, blocking a rwy for 20 minutes. My fault. But not trolling.
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Re: Trouble at EDDF-Triangle

Postby sanhozay » Sun May 04, 2014 8:24 pm

Well, mistakes do happen, but disrupting a planned event for 20 mins is pretty annoying from an ATC or participating pilot point of view, you've got to admit.

Obviously you had to be ignored while you were blocking, are you aggrieved because you think it was harsh to be excluded from the rest of the session?
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