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FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby Hooray » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:05 pm

thanks for being so supportive and responsive, that's the only way for getting bugs fixed prior to the release!
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby Zhuangt98 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:41 am

Hello Kakalawe,

Here is the log from the "log.txt" file found in the FlightGear folder in ApplicationSupport:

Code: Select all
Starting automatic scenery download/synchronization. Using built-in SVN support. Directory: '/Users/student/Library/Application Support/FlightGear/TerraSync'.
Warning Electronic System ... ok
loading scenario 'nimitz_demo'
Electrical System ... ok
AFDS System ... check
Brake System... OK
Warning: detected OpenGL error 'invalid operation' at after RenderBin::draw(..)


The TerraSync directory is by default located in the Application Support folder and i did not change anything settings.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby Hooray » Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:25 am

Warning: detected OpenGL error 'invalid operation' at after RenderBin::draw(..)


It would be really interesting to see where this error is caused, so that the underlying code segment could be put inside the equivalent of a try/catch block, so that we could further reduce the shader level and other eye candy stuff, and try again...
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby zakalawe » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:24 am

Unfortunately this error is produced in a very generic location, in OSG. You can enable it per-primitive-set at compile time, which narrows it down to the specific geometry / effect that's problematic, but by default it applies to entire render bins, which contain hundreds of thousands of elements. Checking it per-primitive-set is disabled since of course it's much slower, in a part of the code that needs to be very fast.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby Hooray » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:08 pm

okay, I see - maybe even just showing a symbolic name for the responsible render bin might help us to find bins that cause this more frequently than others, i.e. we have people here who seem to be limited to certain aircraft and airports due to their hardware - so finding out which render bins (and maybe using a startup option to identify problematic objects) would be helpful - especially for those people who are currently affected by this in the form of segfaults/crashes.
Under these circumstances, providing an option to provide additional info may help us track down the culprit and maybe find a workaround at some point. Obviously, worse performance is not an issue for people who see crashes normally, especially if worse performance = better debugging info.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby fmg » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:39 pm

Hi,

got the new build 377 from the jenkins server and did some testing. I discovered there is also a 378, but it is declared to be without changes. So my comments are about the 377. Had also one look on Mac 2.10.0 RC2, but since it had bugs solved in build 375 I droped it.

I had several times (about 40-50 % of my testing) the problem, that no scenery objects where loaded. If you reload it manually they appear. With the build 375 I had this only one time, after running a replay several times. There is no special comment in the log-file that pointed on a problem. Sometimes the objects are gone after executing a menu-command.
In general I got the impression, that tile get loaded quite late. If you fly at about 15000 ft altitude you can always see the border and for the real horizon 2-3 rows of tiles seemed to be missing (that was so in b375 before also).

In general all issues I mentioned before and wasn't solved in the 375 are still in the 377. After playing around with a few days I discovered some other things.

2.1 Some animations are broken. Blinking lights are no longer blinking. For example: strobe10000 or RedLightBlinking.

2.2 The seconds field in the replay dialog has no effect. By default it is filled with 90, but the replay/loop is always starting from the beginning. Also if you type some other value in there.

2.3 Don't know if there was a change in the FDMs, but the YASIM sliding on ground bug is now strongly increased. The crosswind sensitivity, that was IMHO to strong before is now totally unrealistic. With 13 knots sidewind the plane statrs rotating into the wind within some seconds. Good to see with the Socata ST10 or Me 262.
The Cub from the base package had a gentle flight behaviour in the past. Now if the elevator reaches 50% of it's maximal deflection the plane turns into a steep dive. This behaviour was introduced with FG 2.4 and stays till now. The other stuff is new.

2.4 In the dialog-window for installing new Add-ons the Open button seems to act always as Choose. If I choose a folder and than press the Open button the whole folder gets loaded instead of being opened. Correct handling is only possible by opening the folder with the mouse.

2.5 Landmass Shader produces artefacts in it's strongest position.

2.6 DDS textures don't work on my mac. That is not so important, since you don't have to use them. Worse thing about it is, that allot of effects or shaders rely only on dds textures. I converted all I could find of them into .png. Some of them now seemed to work, but I never managed to see waves on the water.
IMHO it would be better to use files that work on all platforms for such stuff.

2.7 Reducing or increasing haze with the z and Z key is no longer working (manual input choosen).

2.8 Couldn't type in the METAR field in the weather dialog. If you change wind in the Basic Troposphere Weather dialog the old METAR string remains. I would be good to have the basic values of the actual weather displayed some where.

2.9 With skydome scattering on and weather conditions with low visibility (e.g. CAT I) the red light pos_lamp_red_light_2st becomes quit invisible. That ins't so without skydome scattering.

Tested also the Mac menus. But came back to the FG menus, since you have a black strip in the position of the menu bar in screenshots with the mac-menu.

Frame rate stays low: with skydome scattering 16/17 and 19/20 without. In FG 2.6-r319 it is 29/30fps.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby i4dnf » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:11 am

fmg wrote in Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:39 pm:
2.6 DDS textures don't work on my mac. That is not so important, since you don't have to use them. Worse thing about it is, that allot of effects or shaders rely only on dds textures. I converted all I could find of them into .png. Some of them now seemed to work, but I never managed to see waves on the water.
IMHO it would be better to use files that work on all platforms for such stuff.


There should be no effect relying on .dds textures (unless, of course, you select the .dds materials scheme).
If you found such effects please list them here so we can fix them. (again, only if such effects appear when you select the regional/default materials scheme)

Z/z doesn't work with advanced weather on (aka. "Model overall weather conditions based on METAR" ) by design.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby Thorsten » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:18 am

In general I got the impression, that tile get loaded quite late. If you fly at about 15000 ft altitude you can always see the border and for the real horizon 2-3 rows of tiles seemed to be missing (that was so in b375 before also).


That's probably the LOD bare setting - which you can set to a higher value in the menu. The default value is fairly low.

2.5 Landmass Shader produces artefacts in it's strongest position.


If this is in default rendering, then you're getting a geometry shader here which I understand is somewhat tricky.

Worse thing about it is, that allot of effects or shaders rely only on dds textures


Agreeing with Emilian here - unless you use airplanes which are dds-textured, scenery, clouds, models and terrain effects are intentionally kept free of dds. Since dds texture use gives a warning message to the console, I'm pretty certain I'd have spotted any dds in the water shader.

2.7 Reducing or increasing haze with the z and Z key is no longer working (manual input choosen).


This would depend on the weather scenario. Advanced Weather has this intentionally disabled, Basic Weather only supports it in some modes.

2.8 Couldn't type in the METAR field in the weather dialog. If you change wind in the Basic Troposphere Weather dialog the old METAR string remains. I would be good to have the basic values of the actual weather displayed some where.


We don't have a METAR string assembler - you get the base METAR string, if you don't like that you can specify override options, but once the override options are specified they don't go back and change the string (the idea being that if you set the wind to 20 kt by hand, you're likely to remember that the wind is now 20 kt).

Parsed METAR is available in the property tree, so it'd not be a problem to come up with a nice screen for the next release - the canvas people can probably cook up something fancy if you ask nicely.

2.9 With skydome scattering on and weather conditions with low visibility (e.g. CAT I) the red light pos_lamp_red_light_2st becomes quit invisible. That ins't so without skydome scattering.


I don't think lights get any special grace - if the visibility is 300 m, objects are gone in 300 m distance. Maybe lights get special treatment in the default scheme.

Frame rate stays low: with skydome scattering 16/17 and 19/20 without. In FG 2.6-r319 it is 29/30fps.


Try with comparable graphical goodies and comparable weather conditions - there are no changes between 2.6 and 2.8 which could account for that, but the default standard has gone up, so you can't compare default against default.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby fmg » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:45 pm

i4dnf wrote in Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:11 am:
There should be no effect relying on .dds textures (unless, of course, you select the .dds materials scheme).
If you found such effects please list them here so we can fix them. (again, only if such effects appear when you select the regional/default materials scheme)

Z/z doesn't work with advanced weather on (aka. "Model overall weather conditions based on METAR" ) by design.


If I remember it right I changed following effects in the Mac-release build 375 that only rely on dds-textures:
bowwave.eff
transition.eff
transition-base-dirt.eff
transition-base-grass-inverse.eff
transition-base-grass-rock.eff
transition-base-rock.eff

But there where allot more texture-files that only came in a dds-version and had no png-counterpart.

Got the problem with the z-key. I choose Configure weather manually and hit Apply and OK and thought I was done. But as soon, as I open the weather dialog again it was set back to Interpret METAR directly. I think because the last METAR string was still in the field.
It works if you choose the Configure weather manually button and choose this from the drop down-list also.
Maybe it's a bit less confusing if this gets selected automatically as soon as you click the Configure weather manually button. On the other hand I found it quite comfortable if I can type changes directly in the METAR string.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby fmg » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:47 am

Thorsten wrote in Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:18 am:That's probably the LOD bare setting - which you can set to a higher value in the menu. The default value is fairly low.

Thanks! You're right.
Thorsten wrote in Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:18 am:We don't have a METAR string assembler - you get the base METAR string, if you don't like that you can specify override options, but once the override options are specified they don't go back and change the string (the idea being that if you set the wind to 20 kt by hand, you're likely to remember that the wind is now 20 kt).

I went in a situation where I changed the wind, but the old METAR string was still there. So you got confused what is true now. METAR string assembler would be cool. Some other form of display fine. At least should the METAR string be erased if it is no longer valid.
Thorsten wrote in Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:18 am:I don't think lights get any special grace - if the visibility is 300 m, objects are gone in 300 m distance. Maybe lights get special treatment in the default scheme.

METAR string for CAT I is XXXX 012345Z 15015KT 0800 -RA BKN002 OVC004 08/06 Q0990. If I get it right, the visibility is 800 m. Here is a example picture of the scene to show what I mean. I guess the building on the right side is about 4000 m away.
Image
Click to enlarge.
So the haze is more realistic with the default rendering scheme. But the red shine of the lamp is much lower though the visibility seems to be much better with atmospheric light scattering. If get closer to the light the shine becomes white, what should not happen with a red light and only if you got real close it turns to red. Sometimes the shine also get black. Guess thats related to the position of the sun? See the bottom right corner. View axis is away from the sun, the uppers pointed towards. Rotated about 160°. Also the white light disapeared.
Thorsten wrote in Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:18 am:Try with comparable graphical goodies and comparable weather conditions - there are no changes between 2.6 and 2.8 which could account for that, but the default standard has gone up, so you can't compare default against default.

Hmm - I always try to get a comparable setup. UFO, EDDI, 27 L, Fair weather, no MP and AI traffic. LOT bare settings seemed to be reduced? This I didn't check. Shaders should be as similar, as possible. But they don't affect my fps much anyway. Anything else I should care for?
Last edited by fmg on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby Thorsten » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:55 am

So the haze is more realistic with the default rendering scheme. But the red shine of the lamp is much lower though the visibility seems to be much better with atmospheric light scattering.


The evidence from the screenshots would suggest that there's a problem with the skydome shader on your machine - note that the sky color is the same when you have it on or off, which gives completely unrealistic colors for overcast sky and heavy fog. The actual fog color should be a dark grey (as you can see for the buildings outlined against the horizon).

The immediate consequence is that terrain and skydome do not blend, so you can see the buildings despite the fact that they're 100% fogged as outline against the weird-colored sky, which gives you the illusion of better visibility.

The actual visibility is (on average) even a bit lower, because I use a physical attenuation model ~exp(-distance/visibility) whereas the default scheme uses a squared attenuation model ~exp(-(distance/visibility)^2) which gives you less fog at short distances. So there is a region in which the physical attenuation model would no longer let you see things which the squared still allows you to see.

With regard to lights, I have just a few days ago done carrier approaches in heavy rain with 800 m visibility - all lights looked fine to me.

So - do you get any errors related to the skydome shader?
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby fmg » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:07 pm

Thorsten wrote in Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:55 am:The evidence from the screenshots would suggest that there's a problem with the skydome shader on your machine.
So - do you get any errors related to the skydome shader?

Hard to tell, since I have nothing to compare with. At least I got no error messages, but I didn't try higher log-levels.
But the weather dialog reacts bit bit strange IMHO sometimes. Interesting is, that when you start FG with for example Fair weather choose n the clouds get loaded. Then, if you open the weather dialog, don't change anything there and close it with the OK button the weather changes. Mostly it looks a bit odd before and looks better afterwards. But the show'n METAR string is still the same. Can't say if this is intended or an error. Often it takes quite some times, that the new clouds appear. Maybe not all is loaded as it should, because sometimes clouds look a bit odd? Skydome scattering appears fine to me mostly especially if the weather is fine also. But often not so fine as on your screenshots. :(
Here are some tests so that you can see the results yourself.
If not noted all is done with a choose n weather scenario from the drop-down list and without Live weather.
On the top always is with skydome on on the bottom skydome off. All done with Build 375 ecxept the last two (done with build 371 IIRC). Time noon. Last two dusk.
Image
Fair Weather on start up
XXXX 012345Z 15003KT 12SM SCT041 20/08 Q1015 NOSIG

Image
Fair Weather after open the weather dialog and leavy it with OK without changing anything
XXXX 012345Z 15003KT 12SM SCT041 20/08 Q1015 NOSIG

Image
Marginal VFR. This seemed way to bad to me. Visibilty should be much better then below according to the METAR string. But it's repeatable.
XXXX 012345Z 23010KT 5000 SHRA SCT012 BKN018 OVC060 15/11 Q1010

Image
CAT I minimum. Here you can't see the building, as in my previous pictures though it's the same scenario choosen. So maybe it didn't reacts identically always?
XXXX 012345Z 15015KT 0800 -RA BKN002 OVC004 08/06 Q0990

Image
Early morning fog
XXXX 012345Z 00000KT 0800 FG NCD 08/08 A3030

Image
Example for some odd coulds. Mostly it looks fine, especially if you wait some time.

Image
Here a example with live weather on. As you can see, sometimes the color off the sky is changing. So if there might be an error it seems that it's not always there or isn't always in the same manner. Maybe it depends on the position of the sun?
Last edited by fmg on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby Thorsten » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm

Fair Weather after open the weather dialog and leavy it with OK without changing anything


*g* You may have left the METAR string as is, but you switched the weather engine from Basic to Advanced Weather (you probably have 'Model overall conditions based on METAR checked...). Since Advanced Weather delivers a full set of control parameters to the shader rather than defaults, it also works a bit better for Light Scattering.

Marginal VFR. This seemed way to bad to me. Visibilty should be much better then below according to the METAR string.


You probably ended up inside the rain region. The particular tile sets up various rain systems in the tile, you get the nominal visibility as reported if you're outside but a reduced if you happen to be in rain. I believe that would happen under rain patches in reality as well - you could have a decent VFR flight around them, but not through them.

Here a example with live weather on. As you can see, sometimes the color off the sky is changing. So if there might be an error it seems that it's not always there or isn't always in the same manner.


The upper dark picture is what light scattering should get you (dawn under overcast clouds is grey) and the lower is what the default scheme should give you (it doesn't know that clouds block dawnlight, so you get bright colors).

These shots look all more or less plausible to me. So what was the problem before???
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby fmg » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:44 pm

Thanks Thorsten,
Thorsten wrote in Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm:*g* You may have left the METAR string as is, but you switched the weather engine from Basic to Advanced Weather (you probably have 'Model overall conditions based on METAR checked...). Since Advanced Weather delivers a full set of control parameters to the shader rather than defaults, it also works a bit better for Light Scattering.

Wondered where the switch for Advanced weather is hidden now. Now I know. Got the impression from the dialog, that it is getting more and more merged with the normal weather. Good to know where to choose it. So it isn't loaded on startup, when "Model overall weather conditions based on METAR" is set.
Thorsten wrote in Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm:You probably ended up inside the rain region. The particular tile sets up various rain systems in the tile, you get the nominal visibility as reported if you're outside but a reduced if you happen to be in rain. I believe that would happen under rain patches in reality as well - you could have a decent VFR flight around them, but not through them.

Hmm - made a short flight (ca. 4-7 nm). But didn't got much better. Found it rather dark for noon. Must be a huge rain region.
Thorsten wrote in Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm:These shots look all more or less plausible to me. So what was the problem before???

Maybe this?
Thorsten wrote in Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:55 am:The evidence from the screenshots would suggest that there's a problem with the skydome shader on your machine
Now I know there is none.
Original problem was the missing red light http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=18839&start=45#p177084
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Re: FG 2.10.0 prerelease for Mac won't start

Postby Thorsten » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:58 pm

Hmm - made a short flight (ca. 4-7 nm). But didn't got much better. Found it rather dark for noon. Must be a huge rain region.


What does /environment/ground-visibility-m say?

As for darkness:

direct sunlight: 32,000–130,000 lux
very dark overcast day: 100 lux

There's a factor 300-1000 between the actual amount of light in the scene. I think you seriously underestimate overcast weather (or should do something to your screen brightness, that may also contribute here...)

Now I know there is none.


It's difficult to figure out the problem if you have one screenshot where the skydome comes out right and one where it doesn't.
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