Board index FlightGear Development Spaceflight

Space Shuttle

Discussion about development and usage of spacecraft

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Thorsten » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:43 pm

Ah - I think we should leave the cockpit ambience property-controlled - it's supposed to represent the light emitted from the instruments, so it should dim when the instruments do (and when power goes out). If you want to set these properties to fixed values, you can do it by initializing them fixed for the time being.
Thorsten
 
Posts: 11649
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 am

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby wlbragg » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:31 pm

I think we should leave the cockpit ambience property-controlled - it's supposed to represent the light emitted from the instruments

Understood, that's why I left it commented.

There isn't any lighting control in place yet is there?
Do you have a method in mind for the panel lighting control?
Would the legend back lighting control be separate from the buttons?
Kansas(2-27-15)/Ohio/Midwest scenery development.
KEQA (2-27-15), 3AU, KRCP Airport Layout
Intel i5 3570K AMDRX480
User avatar
wlbragg
 
Posts: 5607
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:31 pm
Location: Kansas (Tornado Alley), USA
Callsign: WC2020
Version: next
OS: Win10/Linux/AMDRX480

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Thorsten » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:54 pm

No, there's nothing in terms of controls in yet. Admittedly I don't even know where the knobs to dial lights are - but there's a chapter on lighting in the manual, so that presumably describes it all. It hasn't been the most prominent of topics on my mind - avionics and guidance was somehow consuming more of my time :-)

Btw. - looking at the cockpit, I think the hardware CWS panel indicator lights and the main engine status lights would also be low-hanging fruit to get in-cockpit stuff to work.
Thorsten
 
Posts: 11649
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 am

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby wlbragg » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:55 pm

OK, time to read.
Kansas(2-27-15)/Ohio/Midwest scenery development.
KEQA (2-27-15), 3AU, KRCP Airport Layout
Intel i5 3570K AMDRX480
User avatar
wlbragg
 
Posts: 5607
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:31 pm
Location: Kansas (Tornado Alley), USA
Callsign: WC2020
Version: next
OS: Win10/Linux/AMDRX480

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby wlbragg » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:05 pm

I've got a properties that I can't locate there origin. I've gone as far as grep search my entire FG folder fgdata and all.

controls/lighting/l-console-eff-norm (r)
controls/lighting/l-console (r)

Where are these introduced?

I take it it is not local to the Shuttle? I also have them in c172p. But the c172p is using a different control param for lighting that the Shuttle doesn't have..

instrument-lights

Yet they both have instruments-norm.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Kansas(2-27-15)/Ohio/Midwest scenery development.
KEQA (2-27-15), 3AU, KRCP Airport Layout
Intel i5 3570K AMDRX480
User avatar
wlbragg
 
Posts: 5607
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:31 pm
Location: Kansas (Tornado Alley), USA
Callsign: WC2020
Version: next
OS: Win10/Linux/AMDRX480

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Richard » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:03 am

wlbragg wrote in Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:05 pm:I've got a properties that I can't locate there origin. I've gone as far as grep search my entire FG folder fgdata and all.

controls/lighting/l-console-eff-norm (r)
controls/lighting/l-console (r)

Where are these introduced?


These come from my logic in the F-15. The l-console is the 0-10 value from the cockpit control for console illumination and the l-console-eff-norm is this value divided by 10, unless the bus isn't powered in which case it will remain at zero. See F-15/Nasal/electrics.nas

The first thing to do is to understand how the cockpit illumination works; it's not always as you'd imagine and most aircraft differ in this respect.
Richard
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:17 pm
Version: Git
OS: Win10

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Thorsten » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:46 am

There is backlights (orange) and the screen light (green for DPS, colored for the MEDS). In addition to real lights.

We're going to need lightmaps for the real lights - since we have support for a multi-channel map we can do four different lights out of the box - it's just a question of what to pick.

If I read 2.15-1 in the manual correctly, there's floodlights for commander glareshield, commander left console, commander seat, commander central console, same for the pilot, and then there's in addition mission station and payload.

So I guess if we use a separate effect for the left cockpit, right cockpit and rear cockpit, that's enough lightmaps to do it all.

Panel backlighting is independent of instrument lighting. Panel lights can be independently controlled for left/center, left overhead, right overhead, right - so that agrees nicely with the floodlight requirements - and then mission station and payload station.

Instrument lighting works the same.

All lights can be dimmend - usually there's a circuit breaker and a dim switch that need to be 'on' to see anything.

I'm going to write a JSBSIm system for the ambience which checks which of the above light sources are on and determined the appropriate level and color of background light in the cockpit (say if you're just running the CRT screens, you'd see a faint green cockpit).

I think 2.15 has really all information we need.
Thorsten
 
Posts: 11649
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 am

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby wlbragg » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:14 am

Richard wrote in Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:03 am:These come from my logic in the F-15.

I should have explained this better.
I know what and where they are in the F-15 code. The problem is those properties are not defined in any way shape or form, that I could find, in the Shuttle, yet they show up in the debug property tree.

When I brought over your implicit lightmap eff file from the F-15 I noticed there were 2 identical definitions for both
"controls/lighting/l-console-eff-norm" and "controls/lighting/l-console". There was only one definition for "controls/lighting/r-console-eff-norm" and "controls/lighting/r-console" because I only brought over the left from the F-15 for reference. After I edited and adapted the eff file to the Shuttle, completely removing the l-console-eff definitions, there still remained 1 of each definition (l and r) in the debug prop tree under controls/lighting. The duplicate that was defined in the eff file I brought over from the F-15 was gone (l only).
So I grep searched to try to see where it is coming from and nothing shows up. That text of console-eff (l or r) does not show up under the entire FG directory structure including fgdata using a "find in files" grep search.
So the question is, is there a hard coded "console-eff" property coming from c source or somewhere else that is accessible in the debug property tree?


Even though it's not all that difficult to understand, this is all pretty new to me so I am going through iterations of learning what I can and can't do with it.
I'm discovering some issues already we will have to deal with.
This is where I am at using two lightmap effect files.

Image

As you can see the color of the text in this texture isn't clean or consistent. We're going to have to deal with it somehow. It may require redoing the text texture.

How do you use the multi-channel map or where are the docs for it? I don't know how to assign two color maps to one object?

I already need it for the buttons with orange backgrounds and white text, or we need to set up the objects of button and text independent for one another.
Kansas(2-27-15)/Ohio/Midwest scenery development.
KEQA (2-27-15), 3AU, KRCP Airport Layout
Intel i5 3570K AMDRX480
User avatar
wlbragg
 
Posts: 5607
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:31 pm
Location: Kansas (Tornado Alley), USA
Callsign: WC2020
Version: next
OS: Win10/Linux/AMDRX480

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby wlbragg » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:55 am

Kansas(2-27-15)/Ohio/Midwest scenery development.
KEQA (2-27-15), 3AU, KRCP Airport Layout
Intel i5 3570K AMDRX480
User avatar
wlbragg
 
Posts: 5607
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:31 pm
Location: Kansas (Tornado Alley), USA
Callsign: WC2020
Version: next
OS: Win10/Linux/AMDRX480

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Richard » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:46 am

wlbragg wrote in Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:14 am:...the problem is those properties are not defined in any way shape or form, that I could find, in the Shuttle, yet they show up in the debug property tree.


Worth checking the persistency files in .fgfs/aircraft-data/ %appdata%\flightgear.org\aircraft-data\ - and also that the paths are correct (as including the wrong xml/shader will often work but add the extra props)

Looking at 2.7-20 I would say that the entire button is dark, except when selected and in that case there is a white rectangle underneath the label. I base this on F4 and the (W) to indicate white next to the buttons. I can see no evidence of the rectangle being visible with ambient lighting, which is a bit strange as usually you can see something when they're not illuminated, so it could be a consistent button top with the legend (at reasonable opacity) but with a light underneath that will make it light up.
Richard
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:17 pm
Version: Git
OS: Win10

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Thorsten » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:46 am

How do you use the multi-channel map or where are the docs for it? I don't know how to assign two color maps to one object?


Lightmap...

The payload bay uses multi-channel lightmaps for the three groups of floodlights. They have the same syntax everywhere.

So the question is, is there a hard coded "console-eff" property coming from c source or somewhere else that is accessible in the debug property tree?


With the lastest pull, I'm seeing only console-eff-norm, no console-eff and no console-eff-l or -r, and that's there because you use it in the effect. There's nothing of that sort hard-coded.
Thorsten
 
Posts: 11649
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 am

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby wlbragg » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:14 pm

OK, thanks for the verification that it's only my system, it probably is in the persistent files. I've been having trouble with this as of late in other projects, didn't think of that and Thorsten's verified with a pull it's not in the code.

I would say that the entire button is dark, except when selected and in that case there is a white rectangle underneath the label

I haven't had the chance to look at the crew manual yet, but I think your right, from what I saw of it early on it appeared to be a rectangle.
Kansas(2-27-15)/Ohio/Midwest scenery development.
KEQA (2-27-15), 3AU, KRCP Airport Layout
Intel i5 3570K AMDRX480
User avatar
wlbragg
 
Posts: 5607
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:31 pm
Location: Kansas (Tornado Alley), USA
Callsign: WC2020
Version: next
OS: Win10/Linux/AMDRX480

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Johan G » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:11 am

As for the square pushbutton switches, they most probably follow a mil-spec (unfortunately without drawings).

They are available in quite a few variations. As for the lighting there is variants with the full face lit, halves lit, one half and two quarters lit, and quarters lit. It seems very likely that the pushbuttons with a label and a small window underneath have the label constantly lit and the window lit when a system is enabled (very likely green).

As for colors I suspect they either follow some kind of NASA standard or possibly normal aviation standards, in essence red for warnings (about fatal/terminal faults and errors), yellow or amber for cautions (faults and errors), green or white for nominal operation and cyan for non-nominal operation (though not a fault or error).

For spec sheets on the pushbuttons, the two larger brands are Korry (now owned by Esterline) and Jay-El (now owned by Ducommun) which I think more likely was used as they seem to have been more popular in military aviation.
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
Johan G
Moderator
 
Posts: 5793
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Sweden
Callsign: SE-JG
IRC name: Johan_G
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Windows 7, 32 bit

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Richard » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:14 am

Johan G wrote in Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:11 am:As for the square pushbutton switches, they most probably follow a mil-spec (unfortunately without drawings).

They are available in quite a few variations. As for the lighting there is variants with the full face lit, halves lit, one half and two quarters lit, and quarters lit. It seems very likely that the pushbuttons with a label and a small window underneath have the label constantly lit and the window lit when a system is enabled (very likely green).


p2.7-20 from the reference:

Image

Next to the cross-hatched rectangles on the buttons there is a (W). From the powered on panorama the legends aren't illuminated so probably it only lights when the function active.
Richard
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:17 pm
Version: Git
OS: Win10

Re: Space Shuttle

Postby Johan G » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:12 am

Ah. I had not looked into that reference (the "Shuttle Crew Operations Manual" I guess). Thanks for the image of that panel. It then is obvious that the window is lit white, and that (R) = Red, (W) = White, and (Y) = Yellow, etc (though I have not found it explicitly mentioned).
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
Johan G
Moderator
 
Posts: 5793
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Sweden
Callsign: SE-JG
IRC name: Johan_G
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Windows 7, 32 bit

PreviousNext

Return to Spaceflight

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest