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Distribution of unlicensed works by the FGMEMBERS organisati

Distribution of unlicensed works by the FGMEMBERS organisati

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 12:32 pm

Nothing immoral and most definitely something desirable has been done by distributing on Fgmembers....

If it's released GPL... it's GPL, You can't add caveats restricting where it can be distributed...

As for copyright violation, there's been planes pulled in the past from the official FG repository for the same reason....

Mistakes happen.

As for the examples I gave of new 3d or 2d work.... nothing there breaks GPL in any way..

So enough of the smoke and mirrors
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Sat May 28, 2016 2:58 pm

As for copyright violation, there's been planes pulled in the past from the official FG repository for the same reason....


The only plane that has been pulled I'm aware of was the Honda Jet and that was a question of trademark protection rather than copyright violation.

Mistakes happen.


Sure, they do.

Only, replacing a license text which does not read GPL by one which reads GPL can't really be seen as a mistake - it's hard to imagine anything but intention.

Nothing immoral and most definitely something desirable has been done by distributing on Fgmembers....


We might disagree on that one. You lament the misuse of GPL-licensed content in this thread, yet you advertize a repository which does just that misuse. You argue for the freedom to bundle GPL with non-GPL content, yet you advertize for a repository that most definitely does not even recognize the theoretical freedom to do do dual licensing or bundling. Why don't you discuss your ideas with Israel and see what happens? Do you not know, or do you just not care?

We all publish GPL in the hope that the majority of people makes good use of it - i.e. uses the content, adds to it and makes something come back in some way. At the same time, we hope that we don't run into people who just take and re-distribute for their own benefit. Every time we run into the likes of FlightProSim or FGMembers who do that without a shred of respect for what the original authors intended, I guess most of us doubt the decision to publish GPL.

You argue 'legal' when it suits you to do what you want, you uphold respect for the developer when it suits you to justify other things you want, you uphold respect for the user when it justifies yet other things you want - only it never really goes together.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 5:17 pm

Crickey Thorsten where do you get off telling people what I do and don't argue for ?

A licence is to protect the rights of the author, and anything I call for is to maintain that protection...... GPL allows for people to download and redistribute even commercially if they so wish, so where's the protection ?

The use of GPL has aided FlightProSim, so I'm left wondering why having seen what damage others have missused the licence for, do you still uphold the use of it ?

The licence is to protect the rights of the authors of a planes content... not a single person who started the plane with a simple 3d exterior, who's not the author of the plane but of that mesh... or even protect the rights of flightgears ideology,

The planes much much more that a single simple mesh, and raising one part of it above another show's a complete lack of respect for those authors of other parts,

Flightgear is misusing the licence not to protect authors rights but instead to prohibit co-operative working within the community and I personally can't abide by that... But as I said earlier those are the rules of wanting your content within the official FGAddon repository. I however don't want my work misused by commercial operations and as such will continue to use FGmembers and suggest anyone who's against FlightProSim do the same.

As for dual bundling of licences within a plane... you best look at the NONGPL-FGmembers link in my signature.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Sat May 28, 2016 5:24 pm

The licence is to protect the rights of the authors of a planes content...


*sigh*

That's what copyright is for.

The license is what you choose to do with copyright. But should you decide to use what others hold copyright on, then you have to use it as they licensed it. Which in the case of the GPL requires you to do certain things, for instance release the result as GPL as well or not at all. Whether you like it or not.

Flightgear is misusing the licence not to protect authors rights but instead to prohibit co-operative working within the community and I personally can't abide by that...


I dunno - we seem to be managing just fine, usually it was you who has had problems. So maybe it's not the license which is the problem with co-operative working.

I however don't want my work misused by commercial operations and as such will continue to use FGmembers and suggest anyone who's against FlightProSim do the same.


*ROFL*

Sorry. So Israel founds a repository to realize his most anarchic GPL vision that everyone can edit anything at any time - and you advertize it because you believe this protects you better against misuse?

This is just so hilarious...
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 5:30 pm

Don't just take my word for it..

abassign wrote in Fri May 27, 2016 11:23 pm:. Too many excellent 3D designers are not interested in developing quality projects for FGFS precisely because they believe that the GPL is used fraudulently by commercial companies in the field of flight simulators.



Thorsten wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 5:24 pm:
Sorry. So Israel founds a repository to realize his most anarchic GPL vision that everyone can edit anything at any time - and you advertize it because you believe this protects you better against misuse?


Look there's considerable difference between someone taking my work, adding to it within the FG environment...afterall I gift my work to this community just for that to happen... and someone taking my work and reselling it within another product....

Do try to get your head around it..... as your failure to do so only reflects bad on you,.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby wlbragg » Sat May 28, 2016 5:44 pm

Flightgear is misusing the licence not to protect authors rights but instead to prohibit co-operative working within the community and I personally can't abide by that...

Even if I agreed with your other arguments, that is a real stretch. FlightGear is not misusing the GPL, it is merely insisting that it will only accept and publish on its servers GPL content and not a "mixed bag" of content.
Even If what you say is true, by allowing and then bundling different licenses together in one project under the umbrella of FlightGear, I don't see how that is really going make any difference in the quality of aircraft available to run in FlightGear. Those types of licensed aircraft can and already are created, independent of, and made available to uses in FlightGear.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 5:59 pm

OK I'll repeat this quote again because clearly it's not being read.

abassign wrote in Fri May 27, 2016 11:23 pm:. Too many excellent 3D designers are not interested in developing quality projects for FGFS precisely because they believe that the GPL is used fraudulently by commercial companies in the field of flight simulators.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby wlbragg » Sat May 28, 2016 6:09 pm

Bomber wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 5:59 pm:OK I'll repeat this quote again because clearly it's not being read.

abassign wrote in Fri May 27, 2016 11:23 pm:. Too many excellent 3D designers are not interested in developing quality projects for FGFS precisely because they believe that the GPL is used fraudulently by commercial companies in the field of flight simulators.

I think that is a misrepresentation because 3D designers can always apply whatever license they want to their work and it can still be made available to the public and used in FlightGear. It just won't be distributed by FlightGear, directly on their servers. But it can and is still promoted by FlightGear in many ways. So where is the "foul" here?
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby wlbragg » Sat May 28, 2016 6:12 pm

I think the hangup here is "for FlightGear". What does that even mean? To be distributed with FG? To be ran on FG? To be talked about in a FG forum?
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 6:14 pm

I'm pretty sure that's what I said when I talked about the rules of Flightgear and it's repository FGADDON...
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 6:18 pm

Just so there's no confusion
Bomber wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 10:13 am:
erik wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 9:13 am:You know you can't take a GPL model from helijah and just release it under a different license right?
And if it's your own model then there's no problem at all, we already have a GPL version.

Erik


Helijah takes about a weekend (if that) to produce his exterior 3d model.. it's just a placeholder, a means by which some rights of authorship is created.

If the new 3d modeler uses helijah's exterior model and improves it, then this mesh must remain under GPL.... but when this new 3d modeler creates a new interior 3d mesh for the plane this can be under any licence he wishes, same with the 2d textures.

You end up with different licences protecting the writes of different authors, who put considerably different amounts of time and effort into the plane and view the value of their work differently.

This is where the core developers who don't understand 3d or 2d modelers have made a complete cock up of the situation to suit their own agenda.
You don't licence the plane as a whole, but instead licence the individuals parts that make it up, that way you can run a plane with both a GPL and CC texture side by side without any arguments....every authors opinions being taken into account and not just the author of a simplistic 3d exterior model that he knocked up over a rainy weekend.

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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 6:19 pm

Bomber wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 11:14 am:Modifying yes.....but not creating new material for it, such as a new skin texture or 3d model... there is a difference.

As long as you continue to make the GPL content GPL, you break no GPL rules by creating new NON-GPL content and attaching it to the plane.

The current version in FGAddon is 100% GPL because of the attitude of those controlling the content, and as such no NON-GPL can be added. That is a rule that exists here and expecting to get your content added to the plane distributed within FGAddon, you have to play by...

However if you so wish to have your work under a different licence, you can take the original GPL plane and add to it and distribute it under a mixed licence of it's parts.
You're breaking no legal copyright rules just putting a few noses around here out of joint. ;)

So a win win in my opinion.

Simon
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 6:24 pm

So putting simplistically. ..

You can take a GPL plane from FGADDON. .. add NEW content under a different licences and distribute it within Non-GPL Fgmembers, with the understanding that existing GPL content remains GPL. . .. but you cannot expect to see it within FGADDON because of its own internal rules, which has nothing to do with GPL rules.

No rules, legal issues or moral issues have been broken ...

To say otherwise is disingenuous. ..
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby wlbragg » Sat May 28, 2016 6:29 pm

OK fine, for arguments sake I'll concede that issue and take it for what you say, but what is really irritating is the argument that fgmembers somehow solves that issue. Why, because they allow you to either...

1) use a hosting site that they don't have any ownership in and then fork your repo to one of their own and "redistribute it" GPL or another more restrictive license.
2) create a repo on a hosting site that they don't have any ownership in and allow you to put your files on it under their stamp and "redistribute it" GPL or another more restrictive license.

Who made the license and the work and decided how the work can be used? Who is really distributing the work?

Talk about a middle man!
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby wlbragg » Sat May 28, 2016 6:43 pm

Seems I can't copy and paste as fast as other so my arguments may be out of order but fortunately still apply.

but you cannot expect to see it within FGADDON because of its own internal rules, which has nothing to do with GPL rules.

Their own internal rules are GPL only, period.

Your arguing on one hand that FG change their requirements of only accepting GPL content. But on the other are hinting that they don't understand GPL.

I'm arguing it's not fgmembers doing anything but redistributing your decided upon licensed work on an infrastructure they don't even own. You can do that yourself.
There is no reason FlightGear accepting only GPL content for redistribution should hamper anyone from creating and distributing anything they want.
If a developer wants to showcase their "static" model and bring it to life they can promote it using Flightgear in many ways regardless of licensing.
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