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help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby themadgreek » Thu May 07, 2015 8:30 pm

First of all, regarding your 777 post: I would recommend using the Liveries folder (if it exists), and not the entire models folder as this will provide a better picture of the increase in size of the liveries (it also skews the % increase which plays a larger role in the perceived increase.

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 7:49 pm:The complete FGDATA next with submodules is currently 33G (with the .git folder, so the real git repository size). The "./Aircraft" directory (which is FGAddon after all additional aircrafts and livery expansions) is 14G.


Still waiting for the key number -- which is the increase in size due to the livery expansions. Can you give us a before and after value please?

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 7:49 pm:3. We can come back to speak about isolating the liveries in a branch, as you suggest. But importing them is the first step required to open that conversation, and have some real numbers to discuss. It may be unnecessary to open a new branch for most aircraft with 1 or 2 additional liveries only, if you see where I am going.


I commend your efforts and I agree that doing something is better than just talking about it... but sometimes planning and having a healthy discussion (as we're currently having) is valuable before you implement a feature which takes a lot of time. Why? Because once you've done the work you become more emotionally invested in your idea, naturally -- you don't want to give up on work you've already done.

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 7:49 pm:4. Create the branch, adds an additional problem. The branch doesn't follow the development tip automatically


Correct. Every major (or minor, if you so please) release you do two commands:
git checkout all-liveries
git pull origin master

not so big of a problem, really.

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 7:49 pm:5.The solution I had everytime spoke about is modularity. Really, you will just install (init+update) those aircraft that fit your interest. So that will solve most of your repository size problem.


What's the point of having everyone's livery if I can't have everyone's plane? It defeats the entire purpose.

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 7:49 pm:6. Isolating the liveries on its own branch has a very neglectible effect on the "repository" size. Actually. Because the repository, if you do a complete clone (as oppose to a single-branch approach) will contain ALL of the objects. So we have the same "net" size for No-liveries. ==Think about this point and if this point is unclear, lets talk about it again, since it is critical here.


Fair point except most end-users don't use git clone, they use the download zip button, which only downloads the branch you're on (master, by default). Even I, as a developer mostly use download zip for the exact reason you state -- I do not need (or want) 5 versions of the DC3 or DHC6 (which is also why I have suggested seperate repo for separate versions of the plane... but that's another discussions so let's not bring that up).

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 7:49 pm:I also want you to take a look at your values. And they definitely don't correspond to triple or more of the aircraft size (which Gijs indicated do occur for a few exceptional cases , like the dhc6)

also, keep in mind that your numbers are telling us what is the size of the livery package without the extra liveries. What would be the size difference* after the extra liveries are installed, is what comes to more critical here.

*size of Models directory after extra liveries installed - Size of Models directory before extra liveries are installed


My point, which I guess wasn't clear enough is that even WITHOUT the extra liveries, the default ones ALREADY take up a large amount of the download size. This is probably why most aircraft developers in the past haven't included all liveries in the past 19 year or however many years FG's been around.

Give me a few minutes, and I'll give you the values WITH the extra liveries.

Best,
Phil

P.S. This is a very constructive discussion. I hope we can investigate the numbers, and evaluate whether this idea (which in theory is great) will provide value to the community, or just cause greater file sizes (which for some people is a problem).
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 8:33 pm

Looking forward to see your numbers.
Will prepare the "Aircraft folder increase size" now that most liveries are added.

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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 8:43 pm

http://sourceforge.net/p/fgdata/submodules/commit_browser

Aircraft size directory over commit f65ef564c817d4983c7ab411430785ae398573
(all major Liveries packages added! every aircraft with more than 20 liveries :: Except 787 and 747-400)

Code: Select all
@./Aircraft
$du -sh
14G
$du -h
14532896


Aircraft size directory over commit 0627350cef0f2f629195b3ae837eefcfd3a12288
(before the Livery database import began)

Code: Select all
@./Aircraft
$du -sh
14G
$du -h
13816420


Difference::
14532896-13816420=699MB

Aircraft with liveries added
737-300; 747-8i, 757-200, 767, 767-300, 777, A320-family, A380, ATR-72-500, CRJ700-family, Douglas-Dc3, E-Jet-Family, Lockheed-1049h, b1900d, dhc6

As you can see from the distribution:: http://liveries.flightgear.org/aircraft.php
I already accounted the big guns.

And the gained size account for ALL aircraft. Including improvements on the Yak-130, and a new Aircraft: the F-18C (62MB added)
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 9:27 pm

Another Statistical uptake to the projection of added size after job is completed

Hi Phil
Here we can see another way to calculate a prediction.
If we were to assume that each livery is about same file size (which for a large number of liveries is a correct assumption!)

We could see
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13kmxjg3iBY6aYzgYAUvOEeKHNpu99zXwfKL-W6KoQRU/edit?usp=sharing

That currently I added a total of 662 liveries out of the total 1189 liveries in the database. Accounting for a 55.68% of the work is completed!

Now, for previous numbers we saw an increase on the repository of close to 700MB, so if we calculate how much we expect to add when the task finalizes (over the complete FGDATA next with submodules), we get

Additional Increase per livery: 700MB/662Liveries == 1.057MB per livery
Missing liveries to be added: 1189 total - 662 already added == 527 missing liveries
Total expected size of the missing liveries:: 527*1.057MB/Livery = 557.039MB

Final added size projected = 700 MB + 557.039MB == 1.26GB

As you can see, the expected 1.5G really is conservative value.

The distribution of increased size per aircraft

It does not follow a lineal distribution. So we can't really account that all 1.26GB are equally distributed along the 600 Aircraft. It follows more of the distribution seen in the excel file above, where a few planes had a larger livery battery, while other only have a few (less than 20 liveries). The larger addition is for the 777 with 100 added liveries, and an increase of 50MB. which is close to the maximum cap of gain per aircraft. It follows close to a poisson distribution with a mu of approximately 4 10MB/aircraft (I am eyeballing here)

Image
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby themadgreek » Thu May 07, 2015 9:31 pm

Okay, first of all I went over to the database and checked how many liveries those planes add up to: 466, or roughly 1 third of the liveries in the database.

699 MB - 62MB for the F18 = 637 MB

637 MB * 3 = 1911 MB = 1.911 GB

——

On to the numbers you requested from me:

DHC6 size: 63.9 MB
Livery size: 21.5 MB
Livery percent: 33% (without extra liveries)

Livery size with extra liveries: 91.4 MB
DHC6 size with new liveries: 155.3MB
% increase in DHC6 size: 143%

——

707 (Mark Kraus version) size: 224.5 MB
Livery size: 25.2 MB
Livery Percentage: 11% (without extra liveries)

Livery size with extra liveries: 32.5 MB
707 size with extra liveries: 231.8 MB
% increase in 707 size: 3%

Note: the 707’s liveries are 1024 x 1024 (~500 kb / livery), whereas most planes are squares of 2048 (~1.5 mb / livery), and occasionally 4096 even

——

A320neo removed because it’s not FGMembers

——

C172P size: 16.4 MB
Livery size: 5.6 MB
Livery percentage: 34% (without extra liveries)

Livery size with extra liveries: 60.3 MB
C172P size with extra liveries: 71.1 MB
% increase in C172P size: 334%

——

B1900D size: 37.8 MB
Livery size: 21.3 MB
Livery percentage: 56% (without extra liveries)

Livery size with extra liveries: 147 MB
B1900D size with extra liveries: 163.5 MB
% increase in B1900D size: 333%

——

MD-10 size: 241.7 MB
Livery size: 84.2 MB
Livery percentage: 35% (without extra liveries)

Livery size with extra liveries: 107 MB
MD-10 size with extra liveries: 264.5 MB
% increase in MD-10 size: 9%
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 9:34 pm

themadgreek wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 9:31 pm:Okay, first of all I went over to the database and checked how many liveries those planes add up to: 466, or roughly 1 third of the liveries in the database.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13kmxjg3iBY6aYzgYAUvOEeKHNpu99zXwfKL-W6KoQRU/edit#gid=0
See my excel spreadsheet. The value really is 55.7%
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby themadgreek » Thu May 07, 2015 9:38 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 9:34 pm:
themadgreek wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 9:31 pm:Okay, first of all I went over to the database and checked how many liveries those planes add up to: 466, or roughly 1 third of the liveries in the database.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13kmxjg3iBY6aYzgYAUvOEeKHNpu99zXwfKL-W6KoQRU/edit#gid=0
See my excel spreadsheet. The value really is 55.7%


Yep, I didn't see that while I was writing my post. Do note that that's the least important part of my post.
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 07, 2015 9:44 pm

Yes. I think a few of those aircrafts have a larger size increase. But nothing that really gets out of control, when looking at the whole picture.

All FGDATA next gains about 1.5GB over the around 30G size
The aircraft directory may reach, 15G, instead of 14G

Most aircrafts don't even suffer alterations. Only 131 aircraft over the 600 aircraft get anything installed. And for most cases the increased percentage is neglectible. The exceptions to this are easy to spot. Those aircrafts with lots of liveries, and with a "current" size being small. Think C172P, dhc6, or B190D.
Other aircrafts that are large already like the 707, or the 777 even after tons of liveries installed have neglectible effects.

After having done more than half of the job, and definitely the "big chunk" ones, and not seen a major effect, I think the answer is a : Yes, it seems reasonable to continue.

What would be your conclusion. and if something, which plane whose liveries not installed yet should I skip?
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby themadgreek » Thu May 07, 2015 11:21 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 9:44 pm:Yes. I think a few of those aircrafts have a larger size increase. But nothing that really gets out of control, when looking at the whole picture.

All FGDATA next gains about 1.5GB over the around 30G size
The aircraft directory may reach, 15G, instead of 14G


Ok let's start of with this. I crawled some data from the Github API and it produced a size of 12.951491 GB of data. Let's round that to 13GB.
Adding all of the liveries will add 1.5GB to that, or roughly 12%.

It's not negligible, in my opinion. And it gets worse when you see this from another perspective which is supported precisely by your next point:

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 9:44 pm:Most aircrafts don't even suffer alterations. Only 131 aircraft over the 600 aircraft get anything installed. And for most cases the increased percentage is neglectible. The exceptions to this are easy to spot. Those aircrafts with lots of liveries, and with a "current" size being small. Think C172P, dhc6, or B190D.
Other aircrafts that are large already like the 707, or the 777 even after tons of liveries installed have neglectible effects.


You're right, smaller planes (in terms of file size) do get skewed because their initial size is small. But it's not a small percentage (333%!!!!) and it's not a small nominal value either. The C172P and B1900D increased by 55 MB and 120 MB respectively, quadrupling their size. I also already explained why the increase is so low for the 707. I left the numbers in to keep it a fair discussion, but I explained the variation is due to an anomaly.

Furthermore, and more importantly, as YOU have stated, only 131 are getting anything installed, out of 600, so the 1.5 GB are not being evenly distributed... it is all an increase in file size for popular aircrafts. The most "popular" aircrafts will naturally get the most liveries made and these are the ones the most people used. So the effect is not being diluted as you have shown with your numbers, it's concentrated right where people will be affected -- the planes they're most likely to use.

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 9:44 pm:After having done more than half of the job, and definitely the "big chunk" ones, and not seen a major effect, I think the answer is a : Yes, it seems reasonable to continue.


This is EXACTLY what I was saying earlier:

"I commend your efforts and I agree that doing something is better than just talking about it... but sometimes planning and having a healthy discussion (as we're currently having) is valuable before you implement a feature which takes a lot of time. Why? Because once you've done the work you become more emotionally invested in your idea, naturally -- you don't want to give up on work you've already done."

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 9:44 pm:What would be your conclusion.


First of all, this has become too much of a technical discussion of file sizes and percentages, and I am just as much to blame as you for that (I like numbers).
I think it was important to have looked at the numbers, and I think we've reached a middle ground between our two points of view... I've shown that it does indeed affect aircraft, some very dramatically and others not, and you have shown that it's not too extreme. We would survive a 12% increase in FGMembers size (although I reiterate that it is not diluted across the whole of FGMembers, but becomes concentrated on popular aircraft) -- please don't take this comment out of context.

However, it's more than issue about numbers.

The question is, do we get necessary value out of this increase in file size? As I've stated most people will not use most of the liveries they will by default have installed. I barely use many of the ~10 liveries I have now per plane. I agree, it's nice to have others see your livery too, but this method of installing everything by default and not give users a choice -- it seems wrong. It seems very anti-FGMembers even, because the main point of FGMembers, from my perspective, seems to be to give users choice. You have made almost every FG plane available for users to choose from, and you've given them the choice of which version they want in the form of branches. I have already provided an alternative -- a separate branch which pulls from the master and contains all liveries. No, it's not automatic but it only requires two quick commands every major release cycle. In fact, if the fact that it's not automatic bothers you, I'm more than happy to write a script that does it.

On the more general issue, furthermore: one of the most frequent sentiments you and JWocky reiterated about the whole FGMembers vs SVN whatever argument was that it was established behind closed doors without asking the opinions of others outside of their closed circle, and their closed-mindedness to suggestions from others. You posted about this major change barely 3 days ago on the forum, and even then, the decision was already made -- you were just asking for help implementing it. In a way, your decision was made "behind closed doors". Fast forward 3 days later and I hear about it for the first time, and like others, I think it needed to be thought through but you had already implement a large part of the idea, and are emotionally invested in it now........ just like the SVN guys were. It's hard to rethink an idea, when you're already halfway done building it. I understand, and that's why I suggest that in the future, you give us, the community, an opportunity to give our opinions and help you from the idea level, and not just the execution.

One of the biggest plus points FGMembers to me (and I really do love it), is how unrestricted it is. It's basically an open, easily accessible and searchable public collection of FlightGear aircrafts from the users perspective, and a fantastic developer tool for the developers. There are significant rules or restrictions. If I want to make a pink bicycle and put it on FGMembers, I can. I mean, we already have a horse!

FGMembers is young and rapidly evolving, and we're all still trying to figure it out. You, as the founder and leader are the one who has to set a precedent. What do you want FGMembers to be... this open and incredible tool for users and developers which it is now, or do you want it to turn into basically the same thing as the SVN repository, except now you're the gatekeeper/ringleader/whatever-you-want-to-call-it instead of someone else?

Best,
Phil

P.S. Regardless of whether you choose to continue making the extra liveries default or not, I still will support FGMembers because the benefits would still outweigh the negatives to me. I'll just have to delete some liveries here and there :P
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Fri May 08, 2015 12:08 am

Dear Phil
After our discussion I think we figured out that we both stand on a point that is of worth considering.

So I will move forward in the following direction

1. Continue adding the liveries. The repository size will be "complete", and as we discussed before, a full clone will have all liveries regardless of checking out a branch with/without liveries

2. FGDATA next with submodules, as per number 1 above, continued checking the master branch with liveries

3. In a few selected aircraft, where the skew phenomena occur (examples dhc6, b190d, c172p. dhc2), and lets say the total aircraft size gets doubled or more by livery additions, we create a branch (alternative, not master) called 'no-optional-liveries'
We create this branch by reverting the commit that added the liveries in the first place.
We don't need to do this over the 131 aircraft, because really, why would we go the extra mile over 1 or 2 optional liveries?

4. The 'no-optional-liveries' branch can be used to get a zip file with the "reduced aircraft size"

5. Since it is an alternate branch that just have one extra commit:: the livery addition revert. This branch can be push forward by merging master into it, so this branch remains updated, just no liveries added.

6. A fast-forward will be impracticable, because this branch will have the one extra commit. But, merge commits are fine with me. The great advantage of providing an alternative version that is smaller by lacking liveries.


I think that will be a fair conclusion on our mathematical analysis. It's just the inverse of what you suggested. Making the master "with liveries" and the optional "without"

Best,
IH-cOL
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Fri May 08, 2015 12:12 am

Here we have::

https://github.com/FGMEMBERS/b1900d

With liveries: https://github.com/FGMEMBERS/b1900d/archive/master.zip
Without liveries: https://github.com/FGMEMBERS/b1900d/arc ... veries.zip

The commits that make the magic

https://github.com/FGMEMBERS/b1900d/com ... ca1b41ba6e
https://github.com/FGMEMBERS/b1900d/com ... 4e84ce3ccb

My result
Code: Select all
master:: 148MB
no-liveries:: 32.3MB
repo-size::doesn't change by the addition of the no-liveries branch


@Phil

1. Would you mind verifying that the total size of the ZIP file is reduced as expected?
2. In addition to: dhc6, dhc2, c172p; do you see another aircraft this operation may be worthy?
[ie the total size of aircraft is significantly enlarged when the liveries are added. I suggest beyond a 3fold increase, for a numerical threshold, or somewhat closer to 30MB added data?!]


Best,
IH-COL
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby themadgreek » Fri May 08, 2015 12:21 am

I think that's an excellent direction to take. For most aircraft, as you were right about, the size won't change much and for these the addition of new liveries is a positive change.

For the heavily affected aircraft, I'm not 100% convinced the inverted way as you suggest is better (because it requires more (and more complex) work for the developer).

It's a compromise, however, and I think people will appreciate the choice.

Anyways, maybe we can make it easier for the developers:

Currently, every time the developer creates a new "release", they will have to pull from master to the optional branch but then delete the liveries...

Could we add the liveries folder to the gitignore for that branch perhaps? Or would that enforce it repository-wide and not only for the branch?

If there's a pure git way of doing it, perhaps you could write a short description of how to do it, so we can link the developers if they require it?

Best,
Phil
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby themadgreek » Fri May 08, 2015 12:23 am

IAHM-COL wrote in Fri May 08, 2015 12:12 am:1. Would you mind verifying that the total size of the ZIP file is reduced as expected?
2. In addition to: dhc6, dhc2, c172p; do you see another aircraft this operation may be worthy?
[ie the total size of aircraft is significantly enlarged when the liveries are added. I suggest beyond a 3fold increase, for a numerical threshold, or somewhat closer to 30MB added data?!]


1. 33.7 MB for the non-livery version, 153MB with liveries. Both compressed of course.
2. I'll keep my eyes open, I can't think of any more off the top of my head.
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Fri May 08, 2015 12:30 am

themadgreek wrote in Thu May 07, 2015 11:21 pm:. No, it's not automatic but it only requires two quick commands every major release cycle. In fact, if the fact that it's not automatic bothers you, I'm more than happy to write a script that does it.


This is not big deal anymore, since the branch is created by reverting the commit, the development over the master branch can be just merged in at the time of release, or even more periodically.

I will be happy if you join the train of FGMEMBERS too :D

Again, script is not yet needed, because only these are the simple steps for the current set up

Code: Select all
git checkout no-liveries
git merge master
git checkout master
git push origin --all



One of the biggest plus points FGMembers to me (and I really do love it), is how unrestricted it is. It's basically an open, easily accessible and searchable public collection of FlightGear aircrafts from the users perspective, and a fantastic developer tool for the developers. There are significant rules or restrictions. If I want to make a pink bicycle and put it on FGMEMBERs, I can. I mean, we already have a horse!


That's exactly the point here. If I want to add liveries, I do. If someone else doesn't want the liveries, a branch is created that lacks this (like you had proposed). FGMEMBERs really should be --as I stand setting the precedents-- an alchemy test bed for aircraft development that can be what we all want it to be. with horses, ships, and pink bikes :D

And even every needed branch for any required aircraft that hosts the idea of someone else that can't be popular elsewhere. Or that can. The space where we can create, with no restrictive measurements.

Let me know if the solution proposed fits you well too. I believe it should since you already stated you download via zips anyways, so now I can provide "no-livery" zips that are consequently reduced in size.
The repo is not. As we all know, repos just grow in time. There's not making them smaller. Really, a big reason why we made this whole thing modular, and each independent part (aircraft) has lots of room to grow.

FGMembers is young and rapidly evolving, and we're all still trying to figure it out. You, as the founder and leader are the one who has to set a precedent. What do you want FGMembers to be... this open and incredible tool for users and developers which it is now, or do you want it to turn into basically the same thing as the SVN repository, except now you're the gatekeeper/ringleader/whatever-you-want-to-call-it instead of someone else?

Best,
Phil

P.S. Regardless of whether you choose to continue making the extra liveries default or not, I still will support FGMembers because the benefits would still outweigh the negatives to me. I'll just have to delete some liveries here and there :P



Same thing as SVN? :(
That day is the day I would decline.
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Fri May 08, 2015 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: help request:: Bring the liveries home :D

Postby IAHM-COL » Fri May 08, 2015 12:32 am

themadgreek wrote in Fri May 08, 2015 12:23 am:
    1. 33.7 MB for the non-livery version, 153MB with liveries. Both compressed of course.
    2. I'll keep my eyes open, I can't think of any more off the top of my head.



Great job.
This is what I call team-work! :D

As soon as you detect any aircraft that the livery package bloated unnecessarily ring me a bell. Now we have the path to take. A branch where a given commit is reverted can be created now, or in the millennial future.

The dhc6 is done now: https://github.com/FGMEMBERS/dhc6/tree/no-liveries
The 777 is done now: https://github.com/FGMEMBERS/777/tree/no-liveries
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Fri May 08, 2015 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it? Probably not, because if they don’t recognise their freedoms, they’ll let their freedoms fall
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