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SID/STAR EDDF

ATC systems, events and procedures.

SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Ger272 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:00 pm

Hey guys,
i'm wondering which charts you are using for SIDs/STARs at EDDF. I used vagg-sac.org and skyvector.
I wanted to fly TOBAK8N (TOBAK7N is the same) so I used DF135 -> DF165 -> DF166 -> DF164 -> KUPIP(DF277) -> TABUM -> TESGA -> TOBAK

vagg-sag.org:
Image
skyvector:
Image

So on vagg-sag there is no TOBAK7N, just TOBAK8N (same on skyvector)
I found a TOBAK7N in an other file but it looks same like TOBAK8N:

Image

Now, this is what ATCJomo uses:
Image

In the picture which shows ATCJomos SIDs TOBAK7N makes a right s-turn and turns to the north before Wiesbaden.
All the other charts show TOBAK8N (/7N) going south first (which all N-SID do in EDDF) and then truning right to the north.

So back to my question: Am I right or do I have the wrong charts?
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby BEL ISAAK » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:43 pm

The most current route is TOBAK8N (updated 3 nov 17).

Description (rwy 25L/C departure):
Climb on runway track to D4.5FFM/D1.5 FRD or 800, whichever is later, turn LEFT, 183° track, intercept FFM R222 to D14.0 FFM, turn RIGHT, intercept RID R301 to D16.0 RID, turn RIGHT, 022° track to TABUM, turn RIGHT, 040° track to TESGA, turn LEFT, 038° track to TOBAK.
(Source: Navigraph)

This means indeed that you have to make a left turn in south direction (183), intercept a southwestern radial from FFM, intercept a northwestern radial from RID, make a right turn north-northeast to TABUM and on to TESGA and TOBAK.

Jomo is using outdated navigation data/charts, but keeping up to date isn't that easy as I guess it requires some coding to implement the tracks on his radar screen and he 'd have to find the correct data, which needs either a good free (preferably open) source or a payware source (like Navigraph).
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Ger272 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:56 pm

Thanks BEL ISAAK
so my track was mostly right. Well I was pretty sure that I used the correct SID - but ATCJomo said that I would have to check the charts at vagg-sag (which I did three times) and that he would not discuss....
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Wecsje » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:08 pm

The SID MARUN6M contains 3 parts, 1. MARUN, indicates the end point of the SID. 2. 6, indicates the revision number of the SID (the higher the newer). 3. M, is the SID designator, as there are different SID's leading from different runways to the same end point. At EDDF, the SID MARUN6M can be used for both RW25C and 25L.

At EDDF they do not use STARS.

At EDDF they use transitions (see transition to final approach chart). The beginning points of these are KERAX, ROLIS, PSA, UNOKO. They are then marked with what runways they are for (either 25 or 07), then comes the "designator", at EDDF you have N and S for the transitions, indicating North or South, so you will get something like this for example: ROLIS25S.

I'm not sure what Jomo uses, but if you plan to fly on VATSIM, you must follow the real world procedure. Also, the charts on vacc-sag.org are always the most updated that can be found on the internet for Germany,

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

Regards,

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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Ger272 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:00 pm

Thanks Charly,

thats true they use trans..
The Charts also say that the N-SIDs are used for the south TOBAK departures. While G-SIDs go straight to the north. So Jomo's TOBAK7N can not be correct.

I also have an other question: On Jomo's screen I can see to waypoints for his TOBAK2M (which would be TOBAK7N / 8N if updated): ROXAP and LISKU.
If I set my route manager to LISKU it would guide me to Poland. ROXAP can not be found at all. Is my FG Map outdatet or Jomos map?
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby SVW » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:02 pm

(If I were you:)
- forget Flightgear MP, it's really ridiculous with that "ATC" at EDDF, highly unrealistic and unprofessional.
- grab yourself a more up-to-date database than the default, like such https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6v-1v-doNA.
- fly VATSIM, mucho fun!

cheers
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Wecsje » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:11 pm

Just to answer Ger's question:

Jomo's map is highly outdated, do not worry if he tells you that you are not on the SID, he is almost always wrong.

FG's navdata is heavily outdated, and therefore a lot of fixes may be in the wrong place, etc...

And yes, Jomo is highly unrealistic, and his way of controlling only creates more confusion if you ask me, ie: taxiing inboun aircraft over L and outbound over N is way to complicated, at the IRL EDDF (and on VATSIM), it's right hand traffic (unless otherwise cleared), Jomo in this case wants you to even pushback from the V stands, to avoid going via L.

And yes, VATSIM is much much better, however do be prepared, know how to fly your aircraft, and know how ATC works.

Regards,

Charlie
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby jomo » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:41 am

I just noticed this forum yesterday - and sorry: I will not comment on most of these abstruse comments - just one thing:

If you really are interested in improving the operation and/or documentation etc. at EDDF, I strongly suggest to discuss that on the
FlightGear -> Multiplayer events -> EDDF-Triangle
That well known forum is used since "Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:40 am" - and truly helped to improve that operation over all that years. Even starting to discuss problems during the event (while the ATC is handling several other pilots) - will not help, because then the ATC has no time to evaluate all the needed facts!

One general comment to the SID/STAR problems: They just have been changed/updated last week on the EDDF-OpenRadar- that is also discussed on above forum.

And yes: Of course there is a problem if Pilots and ATC's are using different Stati of that maps - which are changing very often. If you want to always be on the latest level - that will cost you a lot -- but does not help because not everybody wants to pay for it!
    So we at EDDF use the VATSIM (http://www.vacc-sag.org/airport/EDDF) - those are especially distributed chargefree for simulations -- but "free for simulation" usually means that they may be outadated 1 to 2 years --- but does anybody care during simulation?? (remember: not everybody is rich)
    there are many other charts available - which maybe much more UpToDate - but they cost money and/or may lead to CopyRight problems (even though that may not be pointed out so in the WEB --- be aware that there are advocates that look for such things to make some money! Happened to me already several times!!)-- And of course: If you use different maps than the ATC does - you may run into a "mad" ATC that has no time to discuss! Sorry - that's life!
So pls understand that it is much more promising to discuss problems in the EDDF-Triangle forum - if you really are interested in getting things done!
jomo / ATCjomo
ATC at EDDF Fr,Sa,Su,We from 20:00 to 24:00 CET/MEZ., see http://www.emmerich-j.de
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Ger272 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:05 am

Hi Jomo,
this was NOT a personal charge. All I was asking for was the question, if my SID was wrong.
Now I know: It was not.
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For "How to download" check topic: Ger272 HQ Liveries.
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Wecsje » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:27 pm

And to comment on this, VATSIM charts are always up to date, ie: they display the data that is currently active in the real world aswell.

And for once, Jomo, PLEASE actually read the above conversation before you start commenting on that it is a personal attack and idk what. Ger asked a question, and it was answered, and it had nothing to do with you. Now what I do suggest you do Jomo, is read on how SIDS/STARS/TRANSITIONS actually work, what an AIRAC is, and how this is all used in the real world (and how this will also be mirrored on things like VATSIM).

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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Wecsje » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:52 pm

For the most up to date charts:


https://www.belgocontrol.be/html/belgocontrol_static/eaip/eAIP_Product/index.html eAIP for Belgium and Luxembourg (REAL WORLD)

http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/ eAIP for the Netherlands (REAL WORLD)

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=6&Itemid=13.html eAIP for the UK (REAL WORLD)

http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/index.htm eAIP for Ireland (REAL WORLD)

https://ais.enaire.es/AIP/ eAIP for Spain (REAL WORLD)

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/documents/htmlshow?f=dvd/eAIP_01_FEB_2018/FRANCE/home.html eAIP for France (REAL WORLD)

https://aim.naviair.dk/en/ eAIP for Denmark (REAL WORLD)

https://ais.fi/ais/eaip/en/ eAIP for Finland (REAL WORLD)

http://eaip.samgongustofa.is/ eAIP for Iceland (REAL WORLD)

https://ais.avinor.no/AIP/Latest/main_en.html eAIP for Norway (REAL WORLD)

https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/IAIP?folderId=19 eAIP for Sweden (REAL WORLD)

https://eaip.austrocontrol.at/ eAIP for Austria (REAL WORLD)

http://aip.engadin-airport.ch/ eAIP for Switzerland (REAL WORLD)

http://www.vacc-sag.org/?PAGE=airport_overview VACC Germany charts (VATSIM, UP TO DATE)

https://blackswan.ch/northatlantictracks North Atlantic Tracks (NAT's), showing current and past ones. (VATSIM, UP TO DATE)


Alternatively, you can make an account for free with EuroControl, and access all charts for Europe using that: https://eadbasic.ead-it.com/cms-eadbasic/opencms/en/login/ead-basic/ (once logged in, go to "AIP Library") (REAL WORLD)


The above listed charts are always up to date to the current AIRAC, however, do not use VATSIM charts for real world flying.

Please NOTE: when a VACC has it's own charts, these will still be up to date, however, most VACC's nowaday's will point to the eAIP directly. The German IFR eAIP is only available through EuroControl, thus it's easier to use the VACC Germany charts.

C.
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Ger272 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:49 pm

DEC/2017 EDDF CHARTS (free):

http://vau.aero/navdb/chart/EDDF.pdf
Download-Links to all available Ger272 liveries:

A320/A319 - A350XWB - A<380 - A310MRTT - C-160 Transall

--- DUE TO THE A320 RE-DESIGN ALL MY A320 TEXTURE AND LIVERY DEVELOPMENTS ARE ON A HOLD ---

For "How to download" check topic: Ger272 HQ Liveries.
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Re: SID/STAR EDDF

Postby Ger272 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:02 pm

List of old (2016, vacc-sag.org) and new (2017, vau.aero) TOBAK SID/ RNAV-SID for EDDF RWY 25C

Image
Download-Links to all available Ger272 liveries:

A320/A319 - A350XWB - A<380 - A310MRTT - C-160 Transall

--- DUE TO THE A320 RE-DESIGN ALL MY A320 TEXTURE AND LIVERY DEVELOPMENTS ARE ON A HOLD ---

For "How to download" check topic: Ger272 HQ Liveries.
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