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Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-time)

ATC systems, events and procedures.

Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby CaptB » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:37 pm

Taking into account pilot skills is important as there will be new people with little skills appearing on any network, still there is a threshold below which providing ATC services make no sense at all, when this happen I just terminate service for that particular aircraft.
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby KL-666 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:46 pm

At the risk of being condemned again, i would like to be able to express my opinion because i put some thought in it.

Well here we go:

Skilled pilots that like sids and stars should enjoy what they like. But i am also thinking of the unskilled pilots that CaptB put forward. What will they learn most from?

1) Put in a star in their autopilot
2) Being vectored and having to fly those vectors

Well the right answer is for every ones own mind. I will refrain from telling the right answer.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby sanhozay » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:12 pm

CaptB wrote in Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:37 pm:Taking into account pilot skills is important as there will be new people with little skills appearing on any network, still there is a threshold below which providing ATC services make no sense at all, when this happen I just terminate service for that particular aircraft.

Are you saying if a pilot is not good enough, you ignore them without attempting to help them learn? :shock:
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby CaptB » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:58 am

Are you saying if a pilot is not good enough, you ignore them without attempting to help them learn? :shock:


Please, reread my post, I have stated that there is a threshold below which it does not make sense to provide service, no where have I described what are the minimum skills I consider needed for the ATC-Pilot dance to work.

I gladly share knowledge if the other party is interested, I have stated so earlier in this thread, however a normal ATC session is not the place to teach procedures and phraseology from A to Z and certainly not the right place to teach someone how to operate an aircraft.

Let me give you an example of three situations where providing ATC service makes no sense to me and results in termination of service:

    When some people make initial contact but are unable/unwilling to fly a heading and/or are unable/unwilling to maintain altitude and generally do not follow any ATC instruction.

    When some people spawn on the a runway of their choice ( runway excursion in my book ) and say "ready for takeoff" they instantly make me redundant because at that point I am forced into a situation where the only thing I am interested in is to have a clear runway and to do so I am forced to give them takoff clearance provided there is no traffic. And because they have not informed me of their intentions there is nothing more to do but to keep everyone else separated from them and terminate the service as I have no clue where they are going, at what altitude they will be flying and what type of flight they are conducting. ( sometimes they do not know that themselves! )


    When you combine case one and case two.

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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby simbambim » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:07 am

KL-666 wrote in Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:46 pm:What will they learn most from?

1) Put in a star in their autopilot
2) Being vectored and having to fly those vectors

Depends on the pilot. For me it would be 1).

But the question is, what is the end result you want, do you want them to fly realistically (including flying a SID/STAR/ VFR arrival/departure unaided) or do you want them to fly vectors only for the rest of their lives?
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby KL-666 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:27 pm

Funny thing happening. Have been listening in to eham approach irl for a while (some 50 miles to handover to tower). Only vectoring happening. No one is left over to fly a star by themselves. So what is so real about making your flight simulator pilots program a star in their autopilot? I think some people have a wrong perception of reality here.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby Omega » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:08 pm

All IFR arrivals to EHAM are on a STAR that ends up to 3 IAFs (ARTIP, RIVER, SUGOL). Amsterdam radar is responsible for issuing appropriate descent instructions in order to meet the restrictions on these IAFs. A vector has to be issued after the IAFs otherwise the aircraft automatically enters a published hold.
For example:
"After ARTIP, direct to SPL"
"After RIVER, fly heading 020"


Transfer of control will happen a few miles prior to the IAF at which point EHAM approach takes over and they are responsible for vectoring these aircraft for the ILS approach.
The only time when no vectors are issued is during late at night. Aircraft may be issued an appropriate RNAV transition after the IAF for noise abatement. Just like any other published procedure, RNAV transitions are pilot-nav and aircraft will follow them and intercept the ILS on their own.

That's more or less how it works in most airports.
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby KL-666 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:11 pm

Hello Omega,

Did some more observing and noticed the waypoints you mentioned are observed. But there is no logic in how the planes get there, they just come in straight where they come from, not following any star. After that there is the vectoring. So except for the 3 waypoints nothing is observed, no stars used at any time.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby Omega » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:44 am

Please refer to this url for the STAR chart: http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/2015- ... STAR-1.pdf
Here are some examples of some of today's arrivals to EHAM:

PUTTY1A: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM1 ... /LIRF/EHAM
NORKU2A: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CLH2 ... /EDDM/EHAM
REDFA1A: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/EZY2 ... /EGGW/EHAM
REDFA1A: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM1 ... /EGLL/EHAM

Flightaware is not very precise at tracking flights in Europe but it is quite apparent that they have flown the STAR.
When the traffic dies down at night, it is quite common that aircraft are issued a direct to the IAFs or sometimes direct to a VOR within the TMA (SPL, SPY, PAM) to save up time and fuel. So you may observe that sometimes.
When I control I usually get a lot of flights coming from EDDF and central/southern Germany. Most of these pilots are not on a STAR and are flying direct to the airport.
In real life, such planes would usually be routed through REKKEN2A or HELEN1A to avoid the military-controlled airspace on the southeast. That's also why there is no STAR on the southeast.
A prime example is the second link for the NORKU2A arrival by CLH2310.

Bottom line is, if you are flying into Dutch airspace with me controlling, I do not require a flightplan. However, you can expect me to ask you a few questions about what you are wishing to do. Such as "Do you have a route, or would you like to go direct?", "Are you currently direct Schiphol or on a STAR?" or "What's your requested level?".
If you want to file a flightplan or fly with a proper route, I will happily accept it.
Since I know that most pilots are wanting to learn and simulate reality, I will use real phraseology regardless of their skill level. If the pilots don't seem to understand an instruction or ask for clarification, I can explain what I'm talking about and I have done that several times in the past. Next time they fly through and I give them the same instruction, they already know it; so It's really not that difficult to learn something new even if the controller is using real life procedures. This has also happened several times in the past with pilots that fly regularly in my airspace. In fact some people in this thread already know what I'm talking about :wink: .

Lastly for the record, going a few posts back, I don't think any controller, including myself has ever forced KL-666 to fly on a published route. In fact, 100% of the time that you flew into my airspace I let you fly direct to the airport and then vectored you for the approach. I never even gave you direct to a waypoint with an altitude restriction (That's what most FG controllers do nowadays anyway).
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby KL-666 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:47 pm

Hi Omega,

I don't think any controller, including myself has ever forced KL-666 to fly on a published route


That is absolutely correct. I would have remembered that because i really hate to have moving maps over my cockpit, and on the ND i hardly see the waypoints. Too small screen i guess, and i do want to see the cockpit instruments while flying. Remember the Turkish in the field near Schiphol. They did not watch their instruments.

What i do notice is that some fg ATC's think it is realistic to follow a star exactly, to the extent that they even vector exactly over the lines of a star. In reality procedures are indeed used, but the state of mind of the ATC's is to deviate as much as possible from them, to slash a few minutes off flight time.

The most interesting example of that time-saving behaviour of irl ATC's at EHAM was on a jump seat flight in a Saab. Halfway glideslope of rw 27 the ATC asks: "Would you like rw 24?". This was gladly accepted by the pilots because their parking ramp was right next to rw 24. "Just be sure to make your turn above 500 ft" the ATC added.

I do not want to say it is unrealistic to use well known procedures, but it is just as realistic to deviate from them. And i hope that will also be taught to new ATC's in fg.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby CaptB » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:07 pm

In Denmark, it is common to give directs as much as possible, that includes aircraft on a STAR/SID and enroute. So a +200nm direct that takes an aircraft all the way to waypoint on a STAR or even to one on base or final for the active runway is possible. This however is an exception not the norm and is dependant on coordination, traffic levels and ATC workload at a particular time.
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby simbambim » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:59 am

KL-666 wrote in Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:27 pm:Funny thing happening. Have been listening in to eham approach irl for a while (some 50 miles to handover to tower). Only vectoring happening. No one is left over to fly a star by themselves. So what is so real about making your flight simulator pilots program a star in their autopilot? I think some people have a wrong perception of reality here.

I still don't see what is wrong with flying a STAR. And I don't see any superiority of vectors to STAR or anything else. A pilot has to be able to navigate on his own.
VFR traffic isn't vectored at all. They fly on their own and tell the controllers where they are instead of controllers telling them where to go. Vectors are overused in FG.
When I was first assigned a VFR departure route, I asked the controller whether he's going to tell me when to turn :mrgreen: ...when the whole point of a VFR departure/arrival is the pilot telling the controller where he is because the tower doesn't have a radar and can't see them, much less vector them. I've learned a lot of interesting stuff since then, the way it's done in real life. Of course, the controller could've assumed that because I'm new, I'm stupid and can only follow vectors blindly, and not taught me anything. :mrgreen: I'd be flying vectors to this day.
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Re: Tips for new ATC's (and new-in-experience-but-not-in-tim

Postby KL-666 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:39 pm

Hello Simbambim,

And I don't see any superiority of vectors to STAR or anything else. A pilot has to be able to navigate on his own.


We are fully in agreement here. I argue against the belief that the only realistic way to approach an airport is to stay on the lines of a star. That would be a wrong perception of reality, because ATC's often deviate from the charts. In fact an ATC that never deviates from stars or sids would be less realistic than one that occasionally does.

Btw. Once upon a time navigation was done by VOR's and NDB's. In flightgear i prefer that kind of navigation because it is properly displayed in the cockpits. But that is a personal choice, any other can use what suits him best.

Kind regards, Vincent
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