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Not a very pleasant experience!

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Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:21 am

This is not my forum so I will not try to tell you guys how to run it. But I will still dare to state that to me, as being relatively new to this forum without background information, this makes a rather negative impression. Some of you are acting like the police (nothing against the REAL police, please do not misunderstand me ;-)) and some of you seem stubborn and intolerant and impolite.
I emphasize: This is just my opinion, if opinions also do not have a place here on the FG forum then feel free to delete it.

Just please stop harassing me with false conclusions about what I think. Thanks!

Remark:
This is a re-post from my old post "Not a very pleasant experience!". I do this since content wise my old topic was high jacked and after that was merged to another topic so that it is no longer clearly visible.
I know communication which I beg to stop since it makes me feel harassed and communication that draw false conclusions about me will definitely continue in this forum. I still decided to continue trying to point out that I find this very wrong.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby BEL ISAAK » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:43 am

Hi Hans,

I didn't want to interfere in your topics, as I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion. I joined the FlightGear community in early 2011, and have since seen some discussions that resemble close to this one. In my experience: it would be better if everyone sat back, relaxed and left the discussion behind. In my point of view, this is clearly a situation where different parties are trying to be 'right', but I feel there is no right or wrong here: people just express themselves differently and are not easily convinced of the other parties' viewpoint, especially with written communication.

For me as a user and small scale developer (making small modifications to aircraft is as far as I got up until now), this kind of discussion is mostly a pity, because it draws a lot of energy away from the core of the FlightGear spirit: developing and experiencing an immersive flight simulation. I would like to advise everyone to stop the discussion here, agree to disagree and move up to more satisfying activities that give you energy instead of drawing it away from you.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Thorsten » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:57 am

Rather than spreading out to multiple topics, I would suggest you at some point take into account the many answers and explanations that have been given to you about things like 'policing' - now that you've been given the background information, it seems strange that you just repeat your points.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby curt » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:26 pm

Hans,

Respectfully: the people here you are arguing with are primarily concerned with presenting accurate information and contesting false information. If you can't see that as a constant theme through all of this, then you are not focused on the important aspects of this discussion. I urge you to keep this discussion factual and on point.

I understand that this process of contesting Vlsah's claims with evidence was unpleasant for you and vslash. Yes, it was unpleasant for me too (especially in light of the things he said to me personally and publicly) but after a year and a half of trying to handle it in a more pleasant way, Vslash forced our hand in a fairly defiant way.

This discussion continues to be unpleasant. It is not because of the original unpleasantness, but now we seem to be arguing about how unpleasant the original unpleasantness was and who's at fault and who was made to feel in what way. This becomes recursive. We can quote each other's posts and contest every phrase individually. Do you think anyone seriously actually reads all that and cares (besides maybe the person being quoted and yourself?)

Let's talk about feelings for a moment.

It feels like you wish to lay the blame on the whistleblower (the messenger) for making everyone feel bad. Maybe we should criticize the way the message was presented? Should we attack the whistleblower and try to discredit them? Is that where the focus should be? Or do we stop and remember than someone did something unethical, then misrepresented their actions repeatedly, then in the face of hard evidence they defiantly claimed their innocence and made return accusation (of things like mental health of the whistleblower.) Who created the problem? Who made it far messier than it needed to be? Who bears the ultimately responsible for the unpleasantness? Are you arguing this is the fault of the whistleblower and the forum here? I do know where you can find a ready audience for this sort of message, but I also trust that most people are able to discern the situation for themselves and trust that over time most people will understand the motivations and concerns of the forum admins here as well as the host of others that have weighed in supporting ethical conduct.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:03 pm

@BEL ISAAK

I am trying very hard to not be wanting to be "right" :wink:
All I say in this topic is that I disapprove the way some people here communicate.
If you read Thorsten's post, do you really feel that he is able to just accept my opinion on this? I don't.
If you read Curt's post: Is he bringing in AGAIN the vslash topic or have I restarted this?

Congratulations to you: You are the first person for some time to write a decent, polite and neutral post into my direction!
That almost feels strange to me now :D
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:09 pm

Well, as I already wrote elsewhere, I am ignoring what Thorsten writes.
But

@curt:

Why again you change the topic of my topic? This topic was created by me to communicate my concerns about the communication standards here in the forum. This has soooo nothing to do with the vslash problem, why do you bring that back? I am not going to re-enter that discussion about vslash (at least not here).
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Thorsten » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:11 am

This topic was created by me to communicate my concerns about the communication standards here in the forum.


vs.

I am ignoring what Thorsten writes.


Ignoring everyone who does not share your opinion is not a communication standard I share. Neither is your free paraphrasing such as rendering my words 'If I would pirate content from FSX' as 'explicitly calling someone a thief'. Neither is ignoring pages of polite explanations to pretend you still do not have background information.

There's nothing wrong with the communication standards in this forum as far as I can see, but it would seem by now a lot with your own.

And, well, to get back to the topic - it is a very unpleasant experience talking to people who refuse to read and consider what others say and just repeat their own opinion over and over, or to those who liberally criticize others but take every critique of their own action personally and demand respect.

If you read Thorsten's post, do you really feel that he is able to just accept my opinion on this?


As they say - you're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. I accept your opinion that you're not happy with how communication goes but not your 'fact' quoted as reason that people called Valery a thief when this demonstrably did not happen.

(Actually, I'm not even much interested in your opinions at all - I'm really all concerned with factual accuracy - as I wrote before, truth isn't determined by what some people think).
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:13 am

Mhhh, I start to assume that Thorsten's aim is to have the last word here.

So this is now a case where I can not just let this stand there as is since again is contains clearly false conclusion about me:

I do NOT ignore everybody that has not the same opinion than me, the opposite is true.
I DO ignore everybody that clearly states that s/he does not care about politeness (like bugman) or clearly SHOWS constantly that they either also do not care or they just do not know how to be polite.

I do acknowledge that some (many?) people here in the forum find bugman's and Thorsten's way of communication all right.
That is absolutely OK for me!
Why is it so hard to accept that I just have my own opinion and for pure self protection I have to ignore people by whom I feel constantly harassed?

If you do not find their way of communication towards me harassing, that's fine. I will easily leave you with your opinion. I just happen to have a different opinion. So please leave me with my opinion!

Nobody HAS to read what I am writing. Nobody is forced to comment what I am writing.
I am trying hard to not offend Thorsten and bugman by clearly stating that I will ignore them (well, if I detect clear attacks against me I feel free to try to rectify) and I clearly asked them to also ignore me.

What the problem with this? I don't get it.

To all of you who think/write "Why don't you just stop the diskussion?": You are soooo right and I really support this. Again: I really really try hard to avoid discussion. But I will not let dirt rest on my name when I am convinced that it doesn't belong there.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Thorsten » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:13 am

What the problem with this? I don't get it.


Simple really. In a nutshell, the problems seem to be

1) You expecting to be able to criticize others without accepting that they might see what you do as unjust and criticizing you in return.

2) You making a demonstrable false claim and expecting others not to rectify it.

What's your problem with saying 'Sorry, I was wrong, nobody called Valery explicitly a thief?' for instance - that'd be a fairly natural reaction given that that was demonstrably what happened. Or with 'Okay, now that I understand the legal liabilities for forum moderators, it seems not quite as straightforward any more'?

Give it a try and see what happens :D

Why is it so hard to accept that I just have my own opinion and for pure self protection I have to ignore people by whom I feel constantly harassed?


As I've said, you're entitled to whatever opinions you may have about whatever you like, but you're not entitled to others accepting whatever opinions you may have as good communication standards. You do ignore what people tell you, the first post in this thread shows this quite clearly.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:36 am

Oh no, I am sooo weak. I am disappointed of myself: I am actually ignoring my resolution to ignore Thorsten :oops:

Postby Thorsten » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:13 am

What the problem with this? I don't get it.


[...snipped something...]

What's your problem with saying 'Sorry, I was wrong, nobody called Valery explicitly a thief?' for instance - that'd be a fairly natural reaction given that that was demonstrably what happened. Or with 'Okay, now that I understand the legal liabilities for forum moderators, it seems not quite as straightforward any more'?


Dear Thorsten, you are trying to push me into making a "right" or "wrong" decision here. Why do you do that? Can you not live with the fact that there IS NO right or wrong? Not in the topic "is this harassing or not" and also not in the topic "is Valery a thief or not" and also not for the point "did somebody call Valery a thief or not". I made my points about these issues and you have made your points.
For me, that would be it. Point. We have different opinions! Why can you not accept that?

So BIG NO: I can not say that I was wrong because I was not and I am not wrong.
I neither say that I am right. Because I am not right.
I just happen to have a different understanding/opinion about things.

And I repeat again: Please, please, prettyplease get off my back and leave me alone. Do aircraft development and other enjoyable things. I really truly promise to ignore you if you manage to ignore me!
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Thorsten » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:43 am

Can you not live with the fact that there IS NO right or wrong?


No - for the long answer, see my Comments on Postmodern Philosophy.

For the short answer, let's say I stubbornly hold to the notion that a question like 'Did someone explicitly call Valery a thief in the Bell 412 thread' can be answered uniquely and without ambiguity or doubt by investigating the thread. I likewise cling to the notion that stealing is wrong and don't accept 'there is no right or wrong' as justification for taking my wallet - and I do hazard the guess that you would do the same.

And I'm not letting go of these notions just to make you feel more comfy, sorry - if factual accuracy isn't something that's important for you, you're probably in the wrong forum, it's valued here.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:55 am

Postby Thorsten » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:43 am

Can you not live with the fact that there IS NO right or wrong?


No - for the long answer, see my Comments on Postmodern Philosophy.

[...snipped something....]



That's what I thought.

So to all of the (courageous) people who still follow this topic of pity I officially claim:

I do adhere to the idea that there is not right or wrong and I do value the fact that other people have a different opinion than me.
Thorsten does not follow the idea that there is not right or wrong, which makes it a bit difficult to accept that other people just have a different opinion (if I understood the above correctly....well I am quite positive that Thorsten WILL still find something wrong :mrgreen: ).

THAT is why I (try to) ignore Thorsten. Ignoring him has NOTHING to do with the fact that he has a different opinion than me!

[Edit: update]
[Oh, and I did try to read your "Comments on Postmodern Philosophy" and managed to not fall asleep until the point where I think that you used some pictures that are not yours and there is no reference to the owner. Quick, quick: Delete them or include a reference! Or do they not have a copy right in Finland that demands that?]
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