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Bell 412: Here we go....

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Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby hans05 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:15 pm

Ok, I summarize my so far learnings in this forum:

* The responsible people in this forum do not care if a member feels harassed.
* It is perfectly ok if somebody clearly states that s/he does not care about politeness.
* If somebody opens a topic and other people go totally off topic, then it is the owner of the topic to back off and let all the others discuss the off topic stuff. I truly wonder why this is then named "topic" but well, what do I know. It seems I just have to accept the FG forum logic.

Now, I guess to most people who will read this, it is clear that I do not want Thorsten or bugman to comment to what I write here. But at least Thorsten proves to be very courageous and not giving up to still comment about me and what I write. Please understand that I will ignore whatever Thorsten or bugman write in this topic.

For those who are STILL interested in the Bell 412 case, why I defended Valery so heavily, why I still do that and why I still think that the way relevant people dealt with this case was utterly wrong, I try to explain my view on this issue.

1) Some of you people have found clear evidence that Valery used material from a Bell 412 model from a company called CeraSim. In my opinion this is good and right and if I could, I would support this kind of action.
2) At this point some people already started to treat Valery as a criminal and several times he was explicitly called "thief". I disapprove of that heavily! Even though I am not an expert, I dare to state that in all modern civilized countries, a person is only then called a criminal after a judge has adjudged that person. Adjudging a person is normally only done after a lawsuit. There has not been a lawsuit.
3) The evidence the relevant people found against Valery have only shown that the models from CeraSim and Valery have -to say the least- the same basis, possibly are even 1:1 the same. At the beginning of all this it was not clear who copied from whom, whether or not CeraSim has created this model themselves or where it is from. Also it was not clear where Valery got his model from. Nobody was able to exclude the possibility that both had their models from an open source source. There was no statement from CeraSim even though -if I understood this correctly- Curt did contact and inform them. For how long CeraSim had not reacted, I do not know. Would be interesting to know.
4) Some of you started to demand from Valery to prove that this model is his. Valery refused to do so. Then many of you concluded that he must be a criminal. I heavily disapprove also of this conclusion. If some of you lack the imagination to think of reasons why somebody will not start to prove himself, I understand that. I can think of some reasons. Nevertheless that seems irrelevant to me since my understanding of a modern civilized world is that in order to call somebody a criminal, a prosecutor has -with the help of the police- to prove that the person has done wrong and, as mentioned above, a judge then adjudges the person. It is not the task of the accused to prove that he is not guilty! In Germany an accused has the good RIGHT to keep his mouth shut. I do not know how this is handled in other countries though.
It is the right of the FG forum to then say, for YOU it is not acceptable that Valery does not explain himself. It is also ok to ban him from the repository and even the forum itself. But it is not ok to call him criminal or thief at this point in time. It's just not. Also, as I have expressed many times now, I strongly believe that you CAN ban somebody in a calm, polite and respectful way and I strongly feel that you should.
5) So now we DO have a statement from CeraSim. Some of you are now celebrating and might even expect me to admit that I was wrong. I clearly state that I do not at all think that I was or am wrong.
5.1) I feel that I was certainly not wrong on disapproving all the harassment against Valery in the early stage of all this. In my opinion some of you simply prejudged Valery. Prejudging is prejudging and stays prejudging even IF later on it turns out that the accused really is guilty. For me harassing somebody without a fair trial in an official court is kind of a psychological lynch law. But that is only my feeling.
5.2) I still refuse to see Valery as a criminal. Before personally condemning Varlery I would like to wait the END of all of this. I do not know what exactly is in the statement the Curt received from CeraSim. "It is their own model" might still mean that they used a model from some other source and only modified that. I am not native English so I might be totally wrong here, but I think "It is my own model" is not necessarily the same as "We created this model from scratch.". Now, let's assume the worst case and CeraSim HAS indeed created this model from scratch. I see the possibility that Valery had already contacted them long ago but he does not bother to say in this forum. Even if not, if they say that for them it is ok that Valrey has taken it, then -as far as I understand at least German law- there is no case against Valery. There will be no trial and no judge adjudging him. Why would he then be a criminal or thief? He would not be for me. And as a matter of fact, he IS still no criminal in my eyes because -as already described- in my world you should not call a person a criminal until after a trial and after her having been adjudged.
I truly understand that many of you so heavily dislike that Valery has taken some model from somebody else in the way he did, that you THINK "What a bloody thief.". I do not judge on that, I even understand that. But thinking this is not comparable to writing this in a public forum.

I hope my not so perfect English hasn't caused me to write misunderstandable things. Also I hope to not have offended anybody, if so then please let me know.
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby gsagostinho » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:10 pm

Come on, hans05, please take a chill pill.

First, there is a difference between feeling harassed and being harassed. The moderators did take notice of your calls for moderation, went through the topic and saw nothing that would constitute harassment. I personally don't think there was any either, so honestly what do you expect to be done?

You talk about calling Valery a 'thief'. I did not use that terminology, but I don't think that's completely wrong to call someone a thief if the person used copyrighted material from all over the place. You also say nothing has been proved against him, but that's just silly: you enter your house and find someone carrying your TV out of the window -- is that a thief or will you wait for the judge's conclusion? Those common marks between the models are not just 'same basis' as you say, he lifted a bunch of textures and got caught, then denied, then got aggressive, then left. I mean, honestly...

On top of it all, you talk about how people mistreated Valery, but my opinion is (and the moderators seem to agree) that the only person to cross the line into bullying and aggression was Valery himself. What do you think of his posts towards Thorsten and I? Is that normal behaviour to you? Or justified? To me it is neither.

Nobody is forcing you to agree with anything and nobody is forcing you to continue discussing, but if you keep opening new threads you will continue to receive answers. And by the way you are reacting, I am sure you won't like what people will tell you.

Finally, I am very much aware of the rhetoric that is used in the FGMembers' forum about the devs here and I am afraid this is just a gigantic waste of time. Valery could show up on my door and punch me in the face and you guys would still talk of him as a poor victim of unreasonable prejudgement, since nothing has been proved so far.

I really rest my case...
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby hans05 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:50 pm

First, there is a difference between feeling harassed and being harassed.


I am aware of that! It was not an accident that I wrote "feel harassed".

The moderators did take notice of your calls for moderation, went through the topic and saw nothing that would constitute harassment. I personally don't think there was any either, so honestly what do you expect to be done?


This makes me personally sad, but that's the way it is. For me the positive about this is that it might now be more clear to newbies (or for some more experienced people who were just never in a situation like I am now) what kind of environment this forum is.

You also say nothing has been proved against him


That's just plainly wrong (I quote myself):

Some of you people have found clear evidence that Valery used material from a Bell 412 model from a company called CeraSim.


The evidence the relevant people found against Valery have only shown that the models from CeraSim and Valery have -to say the least- the same basis, possibly are even 1:1 the same.


Or is evidence not more or less the same as prove?!?!? Again: I am German, not English.

you enter your house and find someone carrying your TV out of the window


I find this a very wrong picture. I think this is not what has happened here. It would be more like that you see somebody walk out of your neighbor's apartment carrying his TV. But you are not really 100% sure that it really IS his TV. And also it might be your neighbor's brother borrowing the TV for the soccer game that evening and your neighbor is is more than fine with that.

then got aggressive


This is a point I will give you. Valery was out of bounds, clearly. But I must also say that I have to constantly hold my own horses because I find the communication of some people here so drastically provocative that I regularly do need to make me a cup of tea to calm myself down before writing....

On top of it all, you talk about how people mistreated Valery, but my opinion is (and the moderators seem to agree) that the only person to cross the line into bullying and aggression was Valery himself. What do you think of his posts towards Thorsten and I? Is that normal behaviour to you? Or justified? To me it is neither.


Again, I admit that here you are perfectly right.

Nobody is forcing you to agree with anything and nobody is forcing you to continue discussing, but if you keep opening new threads you will continue to receive answers. And by the way you are reacting, I am sure you won't like what people will tell you.


I am capable of learning. I have been advised that if people abuse my topic I shall back off and create a new one, so I will. I was made clear that what Thorsten and bugman wrote to me is not harassment...well I fear that if I adapt to their style of communication I will be banned in no time. So I will not do that but rather really just ignore them (as written in my first post). I have learned that if I express distress and say that I feel harassed that nobody gives a damn and I get a

mommy! mommy! he's pulling my hair! :roll:


(quote from wkitty42) so again the only positive I gain from that is that other people are more clear about the ambiance here in the forum.

Finally, I am very much aware of the rhetoric that is used in the FGMembers' forum about the devs here and I am afraid this is just a gigantic waste of time.


I do not get your message here. I am not aware of what goes on in FGMembers and I do not understand this....

Valery could show up on my door and punch me in the face and you guys would still talk of him as a poor victim of unreasonable prejudgement, since nothing has been proved so far.


That's a bad bad imputation! I could just as well impute to you that if you see somebody walking out your neighbor's apartment with a TV you shoot him dead immediately.

Hah, you see: I AM able to adapt. You impute to me and I write "could impute to you". Some more lectures from you guys and I will scratch the "could" and WILL impute to you :D
Let's then see how long it takes until I am banned....

I really rest my case...


I am not 100% sure what this is supposed to mean, but IF it means that you stop with this topic then I would be so happy :D
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby Thorsten » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:50 am

2) At this point some people already started to treat Valery as a criminal and several times he was explicitly called "thief".


Where?

I've just ran a grep over the whole Bell 412 thread searching for the word 'thief' and didn't get a single hit. That's right - nobody even used the word 'thief' in the whole thread, much less applied it to anyone.

The word 'criminal' on the other hand occurs four times - each and every time used by... a user named hans05!

The whole point above is a complete bit of fiction - it didn't happen. Can you imagine that people react a little miffed when you charge them with things that didn't happen?

That's the problem with the case you present and the reason it impresses no one - it has no basis in reality.

At the beginning of all this it was not clear who copied from whom, whether or not CeraSim has created this model themselves or where it is from. Also it was not clear where Valery got his model from


Yes - that's what the whole discussion was about.

On your own website, you can do whatever you please. If you want to use a repository (like SourceForge, GitHub etc.) or a public forum (like the Flightgear forum) which belongs to someone else to host or advertize content, you need to be ready to prove your copyright/licensing. Not the other way round - GitHub doesn't need to prove that you're not the owner of content to kick you, they can kick you if you fail to provide credentials.

Curt has been trying for several months (if not years) to establish where the models are from - which has been extremely polite and generous - he would have been well within his rights to just kick the whole thread out of the forum when no copyright information was presented.

If someone, for whatever reasons, is not ready to prove authorship, he can't use the FG forum or repository infrastructure because it violates the terms of usage. So we should never get to see these cases in this forum - if you post here to advertize by the content, you agree to abide by the rules and that means you have no right to remain silent when asked about the origin of the content you advertize.
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby DFaber » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:22 am

Thorsten was quicker, but anyway...

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:15 pm:2) At this point some people already started to treat Valery as a criminal and several times he was explicitly called "thief".


That is not true. The word "thief" doesn't appear at all in the original Bell 412 thread. The word "criminal" was used three times. Two times by yourself and once in a reply quoting you.

I like to emphasize, the following is my personal opinion, coupled with a little sarcasm:

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:50 pm:This makes me personally sad, but that's the way it is. For me the positive about this is that it might now be more clear to newbies (or for some more experienced people who were just never in a situation like I am now) what kind of environment this forum is.


The impression I get, when reading this, is that you like to make a statement to newbies: Stay away from here, you'll get insulted anyway. And now you're wondering why all the regulars disagree... sorry, "harass" you.


hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:50 pm:
I really rest my case...


I am not 100% sure what this is supposed to mean, but IF it means that you stop with this topic then I would be so happy :D


So you are happy to get no counter arguments, although you accuse everybody replying as a psychic lynch mob? That's a strange debating culture.

I guess he just wants to spend his time with more enjoyable things, which is exactly what I will now do too. Feel happy!
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby hans05 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:58 am

Ohhh, you guys are SOOOOO clever.
I guess, just like "proof" is not the same word as "evidence", you assume that

"stealing", "pirating", "illegal", "committing copyright infringement" and "theft"

have nothing to do with calling somebody criminal or a thief!!
Yep, that is REAAAALLY far fetched from my side. Maybe there was something in my tea that I came to the conclusion you accuse Valery of theft and being criminal if you ONLY have use those other words listed above.
:D :D :D

Re: Bell 412

Postby curt » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:48 pm
I have simply presented the concern and the evidence that I have. I have stated that because these concerns are not sufficiently addressed, the FlightGear project cannot endorse this model or this user in any way. I have presented the evidence and things I have noticed so that others can make their own individual determination.

If there is a perception that a person can steal something and then through sufficient incremental modifications, it eventually becomes there own, then that perception is wrong. There is some history of this model on github so someone with familiarity with the cerasim model could compare against earlier versions and make a determination about how much material was copied in the initial release. I am not a lawyer ... I am only presenting information here as open and honestly as I can for others to use for their own judgement.


Re: Bell 412

Postby Thorsten » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:58 pm

Is that not so nice to have a - hopefuly - nice and new aircraft for FG users ?



Actually not.

Suppose I would pirate commercial content from FSX and offer it for download here - Curt would be legally obliged to stop me if he would have a suspicion that I violate copyright and distribute/advertize using his infrastructure. No matter how nice and new the aircraft is. So the question does matter.


Re: Bell 412

Postby bugman » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:04 pm
This looks like a direct and illegal copy of:

3D CAD BROWSER - Bell 412 3D Model


Or it could be this one. Click on "3D" and you can zoom in and see the pitot tubes with caps on, and with tags, directly on this model.


Re: Bell 412

Postby gsagostinho » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:39 am

vslash wrote in Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:15 pm:
AFAIK, I make my own work not GPL. It means I'm the only one accountable on this work.



There is a great distinction between making a non-GPL aircraft and committing copyright infringement by stealing part of someone else's work. Those textures are really a big give-away and though you say you have since replaced all of them you still have made a couple of releases contaminated using commercial textures without the author's authorization.
Re: Bell 412

Postby Thorsten » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:39 pm
@hans05:

Come on guys, this is not how to treat people, is it?



Actually it is.

If you spent a few hundreds (or thousands) of hours in creating something, you might perhaps understand that the people who do that do not simply want that work to be stolen by someone else claiming to be author.
Never ever hide anything. Ever be clear and transparent (without shader !)



Not hiding that you were/are stealing textures and perhaps other materials from a commercial FSX product isn't really very laudable, I am afraid. You say you fixed it, but arguing that everything is clear and transparent just doesn't seem to be the case. This project looks messy concerning licensing and use of materials by others and I personally wouldn't want my name anywhere near it!


After all those posts I made my own first post trying to point out that you are prejudging on Valery. And then the excrements hit the fan....

Re: Bell 412

Postby Thorsten » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:39 pm
@hans05:

Come on guys, this is not how to treat people, is it?



Actually it is.

If you spent a few hundreds (or thousands) of hours in creating something, you might perhaps understand that the people who do that do not simply want that work to be stolen by someone else claiming to be author.


Re: Bell 412

Postby bugman » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:28 pm
Valery Seys (vslash) needs to provide the licensing agreements he has to use the 3D mesh, textures, and sounds he has used. Without these, this is a clear case of property theft.

[.....]

Let me repeat: Downloaded resources may not be provided for free to another parties. Therefore using this without a licence agreement with the original author, and providing a helicopter to download is illegal. Valery has been repetitively asked to provide this licensing agreement and has repetitively not provided it. Without this, using this mesh is theft.

[......]

So probably directly taken from Cera Sim or from someone else who pirated it. Instead of producing a licensing agreement to show that the textures where not stolen, Valery has instead been slowly replacing the "
stolen
" textures.

Sounds

The sounds are stolen, period. For example, this is a source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGqUIGQqQss. This is licensed under the Standard YouTube License. This is governed by the YouTube terms of service. This allows YouTube to distribute the video. No copying or usage of any part of the video is allowed. To use these sounds, a written agreement with the original content creator is required.

[......]

P. S. @hans05: You may not consider intellectual property theft and pirating as being serious, but it has no place here on the FlightGear forum. There is clearly theft involved here, with Valery not producing, unwilling to produce, and unable to produce any valid licensing agreements with the original authors. The ones he does provide clearly state that this is illegal. He was asked back in May 2016 about this, but after almost 2 years he has not provided his licenses.


At around this point the topic was locked.
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby bugman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:30 am

Hans, please try to understand how we treat "stolen" property here on this forum. Note, this is how all well run forums operate!

  • For us, this "stolen", "theft", "pirated", "criminal" concept does not have to be proven.
  • Why? Because the administrators and moderators are in legal jeopardy when stolen material is advertised on this forum. This concept applies to all forums on the web.
  • Hence our strategy is court avoidance.
  • I.e. not waiting to prove our innocence in a court of law.
  • This is similar to a pre-trial settlement - i.e. you avoid going to court. Here is a perfect German example of this in action: https://www.e-recht24.de/artikel/tausch ... ommer.html. Most people will pay this parasitic law firm as a settlement rather than go to court.
  • Would you like to be personally ordered to stand trial in say India, for example? You would need to buy your own airplane ticket form Germany to India and pay for your own lawyers (and hotel accommodation). Even if you are perfectly innocent - you still have to go and pay.
  • Legal use of copyrighted property is very easy to demonstrate. You will have a licence. For example here is the licence for FlightGear: https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fl ... ee/COPYING. It takes seconds to produce a copyright licence - if you have one.
  • If someone cannot come up with a valid copyright notice - then we will do all we can to eliminate our personal legal threat.

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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby Thorsten » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:52 am

Ohhh, you guys are SOOOOO clever.


At least we seem to grasp how the subjunctive mood and conditional sentences work in English and how possibilities are expressed.

Some quick brush-up in English:

If there is a perception that a person can steal something


presents a conditional based on an appearance - if someone perceives an action as stealing, then some other action is required - if not than not.

Suppose I would pirate commercial content from FSX and offer it for download here -


presents a hypothetical case with a following conditional - once we assume A is true, then B follows - but at this point we do not need to assume A to be true.

This looks like a direct and illegal copy of:


presents an initial perception not a final conclusion - while it looks like it, the final verdict on the matter is still pending.

There is a great distinction between making a non-GPL aircraft and committing copyright infringement by stealing part of someone else's work.


presents a general statement not applied to any specific case - it is generally true that there's this distinction, similarly it is generally true that there's a difference between you feeling harassed and you being actually harassed.

If you fail to recognize what these statements mean and interpret them as baseless accusations without evidence, then that's not the fault of the people making these statements, it's your fault, because they don't mean what you claim.

Oh, your final example is different - that's a verdict reached by a responsible forum moderator based on looking at the evidence, and it's been explained to you why it's important that forum moderators reach a verdict.
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby Clive2670 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:50 pm

Why oh why, has there been another new thread started (based upon) an already exsisting thread(s) "Bell 412" & "Not a very pleasant experience"? Is this really needed? Or is it a case or trying to get even more exposure to try and overturn the wishes of the Moderators from the potential of possible legal action for allowing the alledged use (or not(he says sitting firmly on the fence)) of "Copyrighted material" Is this an egoe trip on the part of the originator ( and his/her allies) of the thread or just a way of gaining support and a following to either overturn a decision of the Moderator(s) to get "their" aircraft allowed into Flightgear. Or even more sinister way of gaining the support of more people on the forum to try and overthrow the Moderator(s) concerned and then with the support to try and muscle their way into the position of becoming a Moderator themselves? I think that this thread should be merged back into the sub-merged thread "Bell 412" As it is wholly without question a sub-thread directly related to the above sub-thread (Bell 412) As a final thought, It is very poor and irresponsible way to an ends really, as the idea of pushing for an aircraft to be published could put the whole Flightgear program in jepody unless a simple request to prove that no copyrighted material has been used can be furnished to the Moderators. That is the whole point of Moderators, they are there to ensure the smooth running of the forum, the program (Flightgear) and all the legalities behind it. To put it in a legal context if there were no Police, Legal Courts or Prisons, in real life to decide on disputes everyone would just do as they pleased. In flightgear the Moderators don't know your real name, or address so they have no where to point the finger if someone comes "shouting" to them about a member using copyrighted material, So the buck stops with them, and it's them who will be facing the owner of the material in a Court of the Law. Put yourselves in their shoes, faced with the same situation of "Who owns this material".......No one can prove it either way, So stay safe and keep ourselves out of Court and allow the Flightgear program to survive don't publish anything that (potentially) has copyrighted material used within it.
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:32 pm

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:15 pm:Now, I guess to most people who will read this, it is clear that I do not want Thorsten or bugman to comment to what I write here. But at least Thorsten proves to be very courageous and not giving up to still comment about me and what I write. Please understand that I will ignore whatever Thorsten or bugman write in this topic.

don't you know that saying their names three times calls them forth from whatever domain they may be in? beetlejuice! beetlejuice! beetlejuice! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby hans05 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:33 pm

As stated in the intro, I am ignoring bugman and Thorsten.

@ Clive2670:

Why oh why, has there been another new thread started (based upon) an already exsisting thread(s) "Bell 412" & "Not a very pleasant experience"? Is this really needed?


1. Why do you not just ignore this? Nobody forces you to read this or even write what you have written.
2. I opened a new topic because I was advised to do so:

Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:53 pm

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:46 pm:
@wkitty42:

just walk away from the conversation if you feel harassed... you don't have to stay in the topic and read it further... heck,



This is MY topic.


you might have started it but that's where any similarity of possession over the topic ended... you own your posts but that's it...

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:46 pm:
I have asked several times to open new topics for the Bell412 issue or IP related stuff. Nothing happened.



so go open one! you can do that, ya know??? you don't have to wait on anyone else to open one...


So not my idea....

Or is it a case or trying to get even more exposure to try and overturn the wishes of the Moderators from the potential of possible legal action for allowing the alledged use (or not(he says sitting firmly on the fence)) of "Copyrighted material" Is this an egoe trip on the part of the originator ( and his/her allies) of the thread or just a way of gaining support and a following to either overturn a decision of the Moderator(s) to get "their" aircraft allowed into Flightgear. Or even more sinister way of gaining the support of more people on the forum to try and overthrow the Moderator(s) concerned and then with the support to try and muscle their way into the position of becoming a Moderator themselves?


A clear NO to all of that! This is a bunch of silly speculations.

As a final thought, It is very poor and irresponsible way to an ends really, as the idea of pushing for an aircraft to be published could put the whole Flightgear program in jepody unless a simple request to prove that no copyrighted material has been used can be furnished to the Moderators.


Dear Clive, has Valery's model ever been in the FG rep? Not to my knowledge!
Has Valery ever demanded his model to be in the rep? Maybe, but I do not find evidence for that. Some of YOU guys discussed this shortly and came immediately to the conclusion that it can not be in FG rep anyway because Valery did not want it to be GPL.
Why have you not politely asked Valery to leave this forum? I do not know, but I do know that Valery asked and BEGGED to be deleted from this forum by himself.
So why do you write those things that you write? Maybe I did not quite get what you were saying here?
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby hans05 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:39 pm

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:32 pm

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:15 pm:
Now, I guess to most people who will read this, it is clear that I do not want Thorsten or bugman to comment to what I write here. But at least Thorsten proves to be very courageous and not giving up to still comment about me and what I write. Please understand that I will ignore whatever Thorsten or bugman write in this topic.


don't you know that saying their names three times calls them forth from whatever domain they may be in? beetlejuice! beetlejuice! beetlejuice! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Does it make any difference for me???
I feel them on my back all the time even without the beetlejuice stuff :lol:

But actually I start too feel flattered (who would have thought?)!
Thorsten must have so much other important work on his feet, but still I am important enough to him that he comments on just about every one of my posts! :lol:
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby Clive2670 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:59 pm

I have no right or authority to ask for any member to be banned or removed
Thanks Clive aka: G-BLS01
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby Alant » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:04 pm

This seems to be an fgmembers project, where different rules regarding GPL, copyright and politeness apply.

Unless we are to open up our rules, can we ignore them and let them get on with it.

Alan
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Re: Bell 412: Here we go....

Postby Octal450 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:51 am

Why can't we all be friends...

Guys lets end this argument, it's not going anywhere... my $0.02

Kind Regards,
Josh
Waste of time. Goodbye forever.
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