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Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Alant » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:16 am

yes,

FG includes a wide spectrum ranging from childish game players to nerdy developers. :)

Lets encourage all, inside, or outside, that spectrum.

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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:18 am

Don't forget grease monkey's from the Ozarks :)
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Hooray » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:48 pm

I don't know, we can "encourage" people to develop interesting stuff all day long - what really matters though is being self-motivated - at that point, it no longer matters if someone is supportive of your idea or not, just like Thorsten was hinting at in his original response.

Some of the folks around here have meanwhile grown a reputation for encouraging/discouraging certain developments and being kinda bitter in their tone (not talking to anyone speifically here), without offering to also provide a better alternative - that is one of the key reasons why fgdata development, and consequently Nasal coding, has become such a huge thing, despite many people realizing that a scripted approach may often be inferior compared to native hooks, and possibly even add to other long-standing challenges or complicating efforts to modernize the architecture of the sim.

And then we have people like flug (Bombable), Thorsten (AW, ALS, EarthView etc), TheTom (Canvas), poweroftwo (osgEarth) who don't seem to be bothered by discouraging comments, and simply go ahead and implement their vision, no matter what.

In contrast to that, you can literally find dozens of debates in the archives where very accomplished contributors were discouraging the development of these features using these approaches.

Concerning Bomber in particular, he must have spent hundreds of hours on the forum arguing with folks, whereas it would have literally taken just a few weekends to tinker with Nasal coding and make heads and tails of the Bombable addon and extend this according to his needs (T4T) - which isn't to say that this would have been the perfect approach, but it would have at least been /viable/.

Now, referring to myself, whenever I discouraged some effort/approach on the forum it was mainly for technical reasons I think - such as the 777 EBF code that I-NEMO came up with IIRC - I didn't, and still don't, believe that this is a future-proof way to implement an EBF framework - obviously, people are free to do whatever they want, but I'd rather support efforts/approaches that I believe in. Nevertheless, when I see someone pursuing a problematic approach, I may provide the corresponding feedback - however, people can safely ignore that obviously :-)

Then again, I can entirely relate to the key argument some of you have been making (but certainly NOT in the context of Thorsten's quoted comments) - the pui2canvas effort is a much better example, because it's been actively discouraged on the devel list by some of the most senior/active core developers over the last couple of years, and it's been stated to be considered competing/conflicting with core development goals and seen as discouraging for some to know that people are actively pursuing a Canvas based UI, despite the Qt5 effort having made such progress recently.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Thorsten » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:55 pm

So I suppose someone will jump off of a bridge when the plane they said they would like to see doesn't come about. Once again it was a bunch of talking down to us Plebs.


Judging by many of the conversations I have, yes - there's many people who put a feature request out and are disappointed (to the point that they start sending rude emails) when it doesn't materialize. This tends to be worse when there is something initiated that looks like an invitation to feature requests.

May I perhaps remind you that a new forum reader has no way of knowing whether a thread 'What aircraft do you want in FG' comes from a seasoned aircraft developer backed up by a team of 3d artists who is looking for a new project or a curious forum user? Or that people who have made their experience in a commercial environment before where you a customer and have, shall we say'rights' tend to not grasp that in an open source environment you are not a customer of any kind?

If you (who hopefully knows better) feels talked down to by an explanation that primarily targets forum newcomers, then you have a problem. Because I won't write all my messages specifically targeted at you - some will be targeted at a special audience and you plainly won't be able to understand them, and others I will target at newcomers, and you'll find them simplistic.

I don't know about your tolerance for rudeness and disappointed people yelling at you and calling you names (not very high apparently) - but I'm not keen on such things, and if I can clear misunderstandings up front, I'll do that.

Because your alternative seems to be to encourage people to wish for airplanes - because they might materialize (?). But what if not - who gets the blame card? I'm betting it's not you, it's going to be 'the developers' again who still don't do the things the user requests. Sorry, I'm not growing any warmer with that scenario,

One again all I ask is we be positive about aircraft development.


Again - if this needs spelling out: If you (or anyone else) wants to develop an aircraft and has a problem with something, my door is always open. There's dozens of instances in this forum where I explained the use of some JSBSim element, de-bugged an effect for someone, fixed a Nasal issue or pointed someone to the relevant documentation.

But if you want someone else to develop an aircraft for you, I'm not going to be positive about that, because that's completely up to that someone else, and if nobody takes the job, there's no right for anyone to be disappointed.

And, well, confusing the two issues is a major problem in this conversation.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Hooray » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:07 pm

And to be fair, and to put things into perspective - Thorsten stated pretty much the same thing when I once started a "Shader/Effects requests" topic, too.
My sole motivation at that point was merely to gather feedback and collect ideas to see if we can grow enough momentum to have a constructive/fruitful discussion - I do understand however that this may raise certain expectations and cause frustration for those actually working on such features (which I really have never done myself).

Anyway, this is just to say that I can relate to topics gathering feedback to determine what's popular - the difference might be that I don't expect such ideas to magically turn into features, which is why in the orginal thread I didn't just suggest developing a Stemme S10, but also offered assistance with the Nasal/Canvas side of things -because it would only take me a few seconds to answer most related questions, while it would take me hours to even just create a 3D cube in Blender, let alone some kind of JSBSim FDM :oops:
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Clive2670 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:49 pm

As the old saying goes...." You'll never please all the people all of the time!" But abusing people never solves anything...least of all keeping your place on the forum!!!!
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Hooray » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:49 pm

Clive2670 wrote in Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:49 pm:As the old saying goes...." You'll never please all the people all of the time!" But abusing people never solves anything...least of all keeping your place on the forum!!!!


Surprisingly, I've recently been told that this conclusion is even in line with the consensus found by most people on the fgmembers forum, i.e. those capable of independent thinking - so kudos to them !
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:25 pm

And the BS goes on and on. Now you guys are talking to yourselves.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:09 am

hey swamp, it is a forum... a place for chatting... so what if they are talking amongst themselves... that's what a forum is for...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:41 am

wkitty42 wrote in Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:09 am:hey swamp, it is a forum... a place for chatting... so what if they are talking amongst themselves... that's what a forum is for...


It was directed at me bro. After you try to end it, they keep going. But thanks for the commentary.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Thorsten » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:50 am

And the BS goes on and on. Now you guys are talking to yourselves.


Yes - again, not every message in this forum is directed only at you.

(In fact, in a non-public conversation, I'd simply have stopped responding to you early on - the main reason for me responding is not so much the hope to convince you of anything - I realize that is unlikely to happen because you appear to have formed such a strong opinion already that you're able to disregard my actual wording and interpret it as what I should have said according to your 'knowledge' of me - the main reason is that others read this thread as well, and that I want them to see that your accusations are baseless. Which however implies that I respond to points you make even if you are no longer interested in reading such responses. Tough luck...)
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:20 am

Yes Thorsten people will read it and see how most of the things I pointed out were never addressed and sidelined by your buddies. They will see that because it took thick skin to get something done that everyone should have to put up with being told it probably can't be done or won't be. And its true you can't ask for a plane and expect it. Thats not what I was addressing was it? You babbling fool. So instead of trying to make progress we'll just do what the other "old guys" did and repeat the same dumb ass mistakes. Proof again that book smarts doesn't necessarily equal common sense. You are a pest who has Curt the politician to bail you out. And we wonder why people run from this forum.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Thorsten » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:30 am

Thank you for illustrating rather clearly which side in this conversation represents the adult party bringing arguments and responding with basic politeness and which party makes wild unfounded claims and ad hominem attacks.

And its true you can't ask for a plane and expect it. Thats not what I was addressing was it?


It was what I was addressing though - before you decided to chime in and throw accusations around about something that didn't happen. So you acknowledge now being off topic?

And we wonder why people run from this forum.


Yet another unfounded claim, because generally people do not run from this forum - only people who feel the request to be polite to others infringes on their freedom of expression don't really feel welcome here, but personally I'll happily do without anyone who prefers insults over arguments.

Yes Thorsten people will read it and see how most of the things I pointed out were never addressed and sidelined by your buddies.


Since the things you pointed out in reality never happened in the first place, I'm not overly worried here :-)
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:37 am

Once again you are wrong. I addressed the fact that you saying "you need 1000's of pages of documents" Thats false. That was constantly ignored. I never said that planes would appear from thing air did I? So once again you are wrong :) Let me ask you. Is your condescending nature of having a conversation polite? Didn't think so. :)
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:39 am

This could go on for weeks because this is what you feed on. I find that very sad. I can't imagine living like that. I do feel sorry for you, and I mean that.
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