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Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Hooray » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:07 pm

That's a really good response and a good way to deal with such accusations, so kudos to you for that - I hope that people will remember this the next time some controversial idea is discussed on the devel list - other than that, let's not ingore the fact that "proving the old guys wrong" also entailed basically 2 decades of perserverance and sacrifice along the way - besides, you don't seem to have much of a history/reputation for yelling at people and calling them names - so there's that, too. I guess that may have helped your case ;-)

Anyway, FlightGear has literally become a microcosmos, where similar examples of this can be found - no matter if we're talking about efforts to turn the whole thing into a spaceflight simulator, coming up with a scripted dog-fighting system, a scripted weather system or even a property-tree based 2D drawing API. There's literally years of debates to be found in the archives where people were trying to tell others not to pursue these ideas - yet, the corresponding contributors perservered, and remained right.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:00 am

Well we may have the same alligator skin but not everyone does. Sad you can't see that. I've talk to many a young guys who wanted to get started but were discouraged by others, so you've basically said everyone needs to have alligator skin to make it here and that is no way to be. There should be encouragement, not the other way around. To be honest I can't believe I read some of what I just did from someone who should be happy to see other people ideas, even if its been posted 20 times over the years. There may be that one new user/dev who IS willing to work on one of those planes. Now I'm glad people are able to push on through and stick it to those who are nay sayers. What I got out of your post Curt, was excuse Thorsten. Perhaps give your friend some advice to back off sometimes. I believe bombers post may have been inspired by MY same exact question on the Warbirds Discord server. Was I stupid for asking the question? Maybe I'll just make a new post here "What planes would you like to see in Flightgear"? Anyway I for one couldn't read a bit of code when I started, now I've picked up work on he old P-47D-30, I have mentors of course and when I get discouraged or in a rut my mentors encourage me. Hopefully one day I'll find it worthy to send back to Syd Adams to update on FGaddon but as for now its not there.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Thorsten » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:28 am

@swampthing:

Well, I had originally intended to not comment any more on the whole issue, as I believed death wishes to other forum members are self-explanatory, but... here we go.

Stop people from trying before they even get started.


Your criticism would be much better founded if it had anything to do with what I've actually written:

Please do see this thread as an opportunity to talk about what aircraft you find interesting and would be cool to have, but don't believe that it's likely to happen unless you yourself are willing to learn the tricks of the trade and dump lots of work in.


What the post tries to stop people from doing is to expect others to come up with the requested airplanes - for the simple reason that this usually does not work. The post does encourage people to learn the 'tricks of the trade' themselves and start with their own project.

So in fact it says pretty much the opposite of what you make of it - did you actually read it?
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:55 am

haha It did have something to do with what you had actually written but you do no wrong so we'll just leave it at that.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:57 am

I requested an aircraft once and it was made, my son and I were flying just this week. ;)
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:48 am

Thorsten since you wanted me to read what I already have, I'll let you read what you said. "But threads like this one have a way of raising expectations and then disappointing them" So I suppose someone will jump off of a bridge when the plane they said they would like to see doesn't come about. Once again it was a bunch of talking down to us Plebs. So the problem here is you came in from the start being the thought and the speech police. Let people talk and discuss if they want with out breaking it all down as if we are all too stupid to know what it takes to build an aircraft. And here we go again with the comments about it taking 1000's of pages of data to make an aircraft that someone may find fun to fly. If you want to build one so complicated that it rarely gets flown thats fine, the author can do what they want but as if so many need 1000's of pages of data is a load of crap and its another one of those comments that gets under my skin. How many people starting up are going to be discouraged by talk like that? Most will just turn away.When once the ball got rolling they may have kept going and kept learning. You stifle development talking this way. Why should I even try? Thorsten has made it seem impossible. Not everyone is going to build or ask for a space shuttle. Yes it is a simulator but if you have only a hand full of people even making an attempt to develop aircraft, all you have is a nice platform. I'm going around trying to get the young bright minds started and you people keep throwing a wrench in the gears. So having said that, sometimes its best to just let people have a conversation and keep the overblown opinions to yourself. Good day.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby curt » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:15 am

Swampthing, For sure, it is a great thing when you can throw an aircraft or software feature request into the wind, and a week later it magically appears. But for the times when that doesn't happen, why seek out someone to blame or get angry about it? For these developments to happen, real people have to make real time and effort choices and some of these things are really really hard. It seems like you implicitly understand that, and understand how hard it is for wishes to come true. So if someone steps in and disrupts that hopeful magic before it even gets started by speaking a small bit of reality into the room, are they the ones to blame? Think if you can identify a specific real person or real group who was planning to tackle a big project who was summarily discouraged by a senior developer and never even tried? Was it the 'idea' that never got out of the starting gate, or was a specific person or group shot down after they chose to work on something?

Just speaking for myself personal, when I have a good idea it might get set aside for a while ... but good ideas bubble and grow and eventually get too big and itchy to contain, so eventually I have to sit down and work on them and scratch that itch. Also, speaking for myself personally, I live in a constant state of being totally maxed out in time and energy ... between my family, my day job, my various life responsibilities, and my hobbies. My good ideas sometimes need to get set aside for months or years before I really get a chance to do something about them.

I agree that magic is great when it happens. But when it doesn't, real people have to roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty. If that person is you, and someone is actively discouraging your efforts, then you would have a right to get angry. But if that person isn't you, and if you can't actually name a specific person trying to do the work, think about what you are getting angry over. Please don't forget that FlightGear is nothing more than a bunch of ordinary people that made choices to roll up their own sleeves, spend their own time, research their own issues, learn their way past insurmountable obstacles, and press forward and find a way to do things that are really hard.

When I say something is 'really hard', by that I mean many of the things we've done in flightgear turned out to be 10x or 100x more effort than we first imagined. I have always relished those accomplishments more than any others because it also means I or the other developers involved have also had to learn 10x or 100x more depth or detail than originally anticipated, and that is a wonderful thing.

I don't expect to convince you of something different than you already feel, I'm just sharing my perspective in return. I appreciate your efforts to share your thoughts in a respectful way.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:03 pm

Curt before I even get part way into what your saying you ask "why seek out someone to blame or get angry about it?" When in God's name did I ever say anyone would do that and can you show me an example of when someone threw a fit or killed themselves because the aircraft they requested was not made? Do you really think people are that stupid? I am also working on a planes myself so please don't talk to me like I am a fool. I know how much time it takes. I think most people are also smart enough to know that things don't magically appear.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:06 pm

I can give examples of people who were discouraged by others yes but its is not for you to know their names. I don't operate like that. I assume the person who jumped off of a cliff because they didn't get their pane in here somewhere though.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:12 pm

What you are doing Curt is FG dev work not making a prop planes. I respect that, maybe I have confused you. These two things require different amounts of work completely. So I stand by my statement that people should not discourage others and the last bit of the discussion here was with Throsten FYI. Anyway this seems to be going nowhere and that happens sometimes. :)
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:26 pm

I'm going to go back to dragging my knuckles now because once again I have been talked down to like I am some type of idiot. Although you say it as nice as you can make it sound, any fool can see what is going on here. This is exactly what I talked about previously. Maybe some of you just can't help it. I'm pretty sure we will have no reason to speak again though.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby wlbragg » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:43 pm

I've found more often than not that it's a matter of perspective. If you choose to see the negative side of the matter then that is what you will see. If you choose to see the positive in something then that is what you will see. It's all a matter of how you choose to perceive it! That's why you interpreted this thread and the concepts presented as negative and interpreted it totally different.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby wlbragg » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:14 pm

@swampthing, how do the grownups on this forum handle issues and treat people they disagree with compared to the other forum you are a part of? That should tell you something. It certainly does me. It continues to open my eyes!
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:04 pm

Give me an example of how people are mistreated wherever you think it is I reside. Do you know? I don't follow any forum very close so it would be hard to say but there seems to be a trend of people running from this one. Otherwise Discord would not be so popular. At first I thought it would be for voice but its basically turned to a forum of sorts. I generally stay away from the drama it was the fact that there was the overblown opinion that turns people away that really got my attention here. Here it is " " read what you said. Well we generally know what the hell we said so we don't need that. Here it is condescending comments over and over. I often wonder where the grown ups are. I am no child if you thought that. I'm a grown man with plenty of real world life experience. What I see on here continues to open my eyes. Dodging my questions. One person stepping in to sideline the conversation when the other has no response. So as I've said before I hate the constant bickering I see on here, yet now I've been sucked into it because people won't accept the truth. How many downloads as to how many people actually stick around opens my eyes. So who is running them off? Thats my question.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Hooray » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:09 pm

Some of the folks posting here disagreeing with Curt are missing the whole picture actually - we do have a number of FG features/efforts that took shape despite strong opposition and fundamentally despite an initial lack of encouragement, let alone support, from the core development group - the Canvas 2D drawing system being one of the more recent additions that come to mind, but also some of Thorsten's work - namely the scripted (Nasal based) "Advanced Weather" system, that is superior to anything we have in terms of core features, but that is also favorably highlighted in various independent flight simulator reviews - in contrast to that, a number of people on the devel list have basically stated that they wouldn't want to see such features developed using a scripting language, especially a niche one like Nasal. Besides, other core developers have explicitly stated on several ocassions that they'd like to see Nasal becoming entirely optional, possibly to be replaced with something like Python, Lua or JavaScript - so, it's really not that the current bag-of-features represents any kind of mutual "consensus", there are also technical disagreements among core developers and other long-standing contributors.

Equally, in the current form the Bombable addon cannot be committed to fgdata/fgaddon, because a number of core developers are opposed to it due to its dogfighting nature - yet, flug has been maintaining his work separately, and it continues to be one of the most actively developed and -maintained addons available for FlightGear - talk about discouragement and opposition.

And then, getting back to Thorsten, we've literally seen years wasted on this forum where people were debating whether it'd make sense to implement spacecraft/spaceflight related functionality in/for FlightGear - fast forward 5+ years later, the shuttle folks have actually demonstrated, that there isn't much missing at the core level at all.

In other words, this isn't about some negative or bitter postings/people discouraging others - it's more about those few that actually don't give a damn and care so much about their idea, that it ends up growing -becoming so big that it will eventually take shape, no matter the degree and nature of opposition - and no matter what some of the old guys are telling you.

Thus, it is kinda pointless making all this specific to Thorsten - who's originally seen more criticism and opposition from some of the most senior contributors on the devel list, due to his choice of tools (namely Nasal scripting), and approaches/coding style. If Thorsten had listened to those people, we probably would not have an advanced weather system, an orbital rendering engine, the atmostpheric light scattering framework (ALS) or the shuttle in its current form.

This is just to say that Thorsten has been more on the receiving end of this than most others around here, and that I cannot see anything negative or bitter in his original response - it was certainly meant to provide good advice, and I think the same kind of advice would have worked for him - not sure though if we could have discouraged him - just look at his early exchanges with HHS on this very forum - where it seemed like he was being treated in a fairly condescending manner.

Speaking in general, it is easy for people to vent their frustration here - simply because it takes so much less time and energy than doing a little research first to check your facts, but if we (as in, the community) can immediately spot people posting without see the full context, they are the ones to harm their case.

Personally, I've found Curt's responses here rather constructive, and I would hope for this attitude to make it over to the devel list, so that this also causes a rejuvenation process in the core development group - it is really important how many of the most important key features came to be, and by whom - what type of people were involved, at what time in their lives, and then many of the folks currently "involved" may actually realize that they have already taken a backseat role in the project, maybe because their lives have suddenly changed so much - and that people with a background similar to their own (when they were most active) may actually be in a better position to become key contributors in the project, while some of the "founding fathers" could end up with a mentoring role.

It seems that Curt's attitude is also one increasingly affected by self-reflection, this can be seen in a handful of FlightGear related interviews he's given over the last couple of years, and personally I believe that this is the key to making sure that the project remains alive and kicking - without expecting 2-3 key folks to shoulder 99% of the workload.

To see for yourself, just look at the commit logs of the last couple of years and imagine what would happen if 1-2 of the most active contributors had to take a hiatus from FlightGear (for whatever reason).

Before yelling at folks like Curt, I'd suggest to read up on some of the conclusions that Curt arrived at over the years, and maybe ask yourself if you could maybe become part of the solution rather than the problem ?

https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/content. ... FlightGear
https://www.scoop.it/t/microsimulation/ ... flightgear
https://www.unixmen.com/reach-for-the-o ... tis-olson/
http://www.h-online.com/open/features/T ... 12243.html
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