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Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:09 pm

bugman wrote in Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:35 am:I have split these posts off from the topic:

As detailed above, the long time forum member Bomber has been banned. As the conversation has jumped topics, the final straw and reason for the banning is the post:

The new forum user usairways231 has also been banned for repetitive and aggressive trolling. Such behaviour is not tolerated here.

Regards,
Edward



When you ban someone why do you even talk about it in public? You guys seem worried about how things look to users on the forum....RealY? This doesn't make it look good. Do what you need and move on. This looks like your up on a high horse looking down. Why are we talking about these 2 in the same topic? Why is there even the topic? Am I missing something? Did someone ask why these two were banned or do we just need to toot our own horns?
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:21 pm

The moderator will add a publicly visible post indicating when this has taken place.

If you have any issues with moderation, you may PM the moderator.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:23 pm

I don't care what it says. I'm questioning it. ;)
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:24 pm

If we are so open in our discussion, I see no problem with me asking.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Hooray » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:40 pm

It's called transparency - and it kinda makes sense - if I should get banned here, it would make sense to make sure that people can learn why I got banned, so that they can make up their own minds instead of just spreading rumours and conspiracy therories here.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:50 pm

Its just as easy for them to ask the person themselves and they can also go back and read the post. I think your just turning users off by making a whole post about banning someone every time it happens. Not everyone is into the drama. I wouldn't bring it up unless someone ask. Then you can explain your reasoning. You can still have transparency that way if thats what you consider this.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Hooray » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:05 pm

we've seen people disappear for various reasons, this being an open source project based on people volunteering their time and expertise to make contributions, it is usually a good idea to be transparent about possibly controversial incidents, people and decisions. This isn't the first time something like this has happened - and it's one of the reasons why I generally suggest not to delete problematic topics/postings, but merely lock them - so that people can read up on the events leading to a certain decision. It has very little to do with "drama" actually - especially in the light of propaganda spread by other parties.

Let's assume for a second I get banned here, I have accumulated a posting history of roughly 10k messages over the years - some of which are rather pointed/critical of the project as a whole, some maybe even offensive and attacking other contributors - possibly using foul language - thus, I am about to get banned - yet, I am foreseeing that this may finally happen, so I go ahead and delete/edit some of my most controversial postings, and then go to another place (forum) to tell everybody just how **$§!)(!"()"§ up this whole place and the whole community is, I could literally spend years making the case that there is some personal campaign going on to discredit me - however, none of that is possible if we retain a history of the events and postings/comments - so that should someone really care enough to make a big fuss about it, we can tell them to refer to the archives.

Again, personally I am not a big fan of simply deleting stuff - but given the profanity involved in many postings made by the corresponding people, it kinda makes sense - or the forum moderators themselves would be violating the forum rules by just locking topics that violate the forum rules. It's obviously a fine line to be walked, but being transparent about this is absolutely appropriate.

Given how this whole dilemma has unfolded over the years, this degree of transparency and integrity has enormously helped setting apart this community from the other place and the atmosphere over there.

Unfortuntately, such high standards are a double-edged sword, too - some of us once discussed possible measures to deal with certain threats once and for all, but would not even receive feedback from the very parties involved in maintaining this degree of transparency and integrity (the same people now being yelled at for being dictators and censoring the forum ...), because they felt it would not match their own standards - otherwise, on purely technical grounds it would be straightforward to deal with these challenges, and people - but that is obviously not something that this community was interested in pursuing ... Just like some of the team were originally opposed to removing forum members.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby curt » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:07 pm

In order to learn today's lesson, we must spin the wheel of morality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv6IWX1_XHQ

So the lesson of the day is that the flightgear forum is not the place to publicly state your wishes that someone else should die. It is also not the place for a person to launch a sequence of profanity laced messages threatening to cut off people's heads with a sword. These actions were not connected, but both happened in the same week and both indicated a desire for a similar end result. They obviously differ in the level of hoped-for personal involvement, but neither is appropriate for this forum and neither is welcome on this forum.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:14 pm

So is Bomber's post deleted? Can I see how it turned into a flame war in the first place?
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Wecsje » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:19 pm

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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby curt » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:19 pm

Not deleted, not a flame war. Just do a forum search here on "Why don't you just die and put us all out of our misery...."
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:29 pm

Postby Thorsten » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:17 am

"I'm not sure what the original intention of the thread was - maybe idle curiosity? But threads like this one have a way of raising expectations and then disappointing them.

The reason is that there's really nobody waiting to create whatever aircraft is mentioned here. It takes hundreds of working hours to create a decent aircraft, thousands of hours to create a really good one, basically this requires teams of dedicated people to commit to a project for a few years.

Usually it also requires tons of background information if you want something good (I have a veritable library of Space Shuttle reference material by now - some 2600+ pages of operating procedures in addition to some 1000+ pages on aerodynamics).

So it usually happens if the team really likes to bring the aircraft into FG - which they do regardless of the wishes of other people.

Please do see this thread as an opportunity to talk about what aircraft you find interesting and would be cool to have, but don't believe that it's likely to happen unless you yourself are willing to learn the tricks of the trade and dump lots of work in.

(If you're tempted to say you can't do X (say coding canvas) so someone else need to do it, consider this: You'll be busy some 1000 hours before the aircraft starts being good - you won't even notice the twenty hours (~three weeks) you learn coding initially in the grand scheme of things...) "
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby swampthing » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:47 pm

That right there is what I have been talking about. Stop people from trying before they even get started. This type of talk makes me wish I never have seen it, it make me want to beat my head against a wall. So bomber may have went to far on that comment but when your trying to make progress and someone come in and shuts it right down it can really piss a guy off. It does me. As soon as I started using Flight gear and got on the forums I ran into endless bickering and arguing, all of the " I know more than you" I've done this for said years" and no one gets anywhere its just a big pissing contest and it needs to stop. If you don't like someone and you know you don't like them just don't comment on their post. Its real simple. I had a problem once with the new QT launcher when I was testing 3.6 and I asked a question in the dev section. I was talked down to like I was an idiot. "well why don't we make a launcher for a launcher for a launcher" I thought about throwing FG in the trash but I have pretty thick skin A lot of people don't. We have a big problem with that here and then at the same time we have people like earlier crying to ban someone or moderate them. No that guy wasn't banned by both discord servers he was banned by one and complained on ours and I told him " not my server take it up with them' (being wecsj's server) so he left on his own. What is wrong with people? Throsten has done some good work, I can only imagine how much more he could get done if he would stop arguing with people. So to end, if you don't have anything positive to say on someones post, just don't comment, scroll on.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby curt » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:36 pm

Hmmm, the reason FlightGear exists right now is because I and a handful of other young naive people ignored the older, wiser generation that said writing a flight sim from scratch was too hard, too complex, not possible without dozens of highly paid developers and years of development work. These are well meaning sentiments. Seasoned developers are trying to convey their experience and help the younger generation skip learning some lessons the hard way. I didn't get mad when people said these things to me or didn't take my efforts seriously because I *knew* it could be done. I *knew* we could do it. I had a picture in my head and a plan. The lofty way to say that is I had a vision and I trusted that vision even when it was tough. For several years I carried FlightGear on my own shoulders and worked my butt off 24/7 to make sure it happen. I don't say that to credit myself, because FlightGear would be puny and pitiful in comparison if it was only ever my own effort. We have literally 100's, maybe 1000's of super talented and passionate people contributing and making FlightGear a force. Some great people came on board early on and made huge contributions. I do mention my own efforts though because they came in the face of a lot of people saying it couldn't be done our doubting our efforts. I didn't believe them though, and it was only through dedication and commitment to our vision over literally several tough years that we were able to get over the hump and beyond to where we are now. So personally, I don't buy that excuse that someone's efforts got shot down because some more seasoned developer said it would be too hard. If you have a goal and are willing to put in the effort, then do it. Prove the old guys wrong. That's what I did ... now I'm the old guy ... I get that, it's kind of funny to think about, but it happens to the best of us ... just wait and you'll see.
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Re: Banning of Bomber and usairways231 (was Discord).

Postby Hooray » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:07 pm

That's a really good response and a good way to deal with such accusations, so kudos to you for that - I hope that people will remember this the next time some controversial idea is discussed on the devel list - other than that, let's not ingore the fact that "proving the old guys wrong" also entailed basically 2 decades of perserverance and sacrifice along the way - besides, you don't seem to have much of a history/reputation for yelling at people and calling them names - so there's that, too. I guess that may have helped your case ;-)

Anyway, FlightGear has literally become a microcosmos, where similar examples of this can be found - no matter if we're talking about efforts to turn the whole thing into a spaceflight simulator, coming up with a scripted dog-fighting system, a scripted weather system or even a property-tree based 2D drawing API. There's literally years of debates to be found in the archives where people were trying to tell others not to pursue these ideas - yet, the corresponding contributors perservered, and remained right.
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