A second message to bugman - stop accusing!

[Octal450]

"Quote from mailing list, from "bugman"
On 25 April 2016 at 15:18, Jari Häkkinen <jari@...> wrote:
> The tone of voice does not encourage people to join a discussion.
> Examining the history of FGs mumble page didn't show any hostile take
> over actions. There was a confusion of ordering the mumble servers which
> was corrected by I4dnf. After that Bugman decided to lock the wiki page.
> There was no back and forth changes of information, no change visible
> war, in the wiki before lock down.
>
> The action of locking the wiki page and tone of voice in this thread
> kills discussion. Therefore, there will be no discussion and hence my
> prediction that it is now to late for further discussions regarding the
> mumble wiki page.

Let's have a look at the full set of events, then I think you'll see
that not too many people will object if there are no discussions and
the article remains in its original state:

- A user was given a warning, by myself, for inappropriate and very
heated text in a forum thread [1], the posts deleted, and the user
asked to reformulate and repost his text, which he did.

- That same user was later given a standard 24-hour cooling off
period on the forum after more heated (and moderated) discussions [1],
as the thread was becoming a non-resolvable argument about a new piece
of infrastructure for the FGMEMBERS project designed to replace the
FlightGear TerraScenery/TerraSync infrastructure (FGMEMBERS-TERRAGIT).

- During the ban, that user posted a message about the new Mumble
server on the Jabberwocky forum. Within quick succession, a
FlightGear forum post with close to identical text appeared under a
non-banned user's name. Both these posts, with no quoting, started
with "I decided to make my own server..." [2].

- The banned user also fabricated a new forum thread under a
different account with the name "writer556" created 3 hours after the
ban had been put into place [3]. The fingerprint left by the computer
and stored on the phpBB backend clearly shows the banned user and
writer556 were using the same computer. That thread was designed to
support the new Mumble server and the banned user. If you read this
thread carefully, you'll see that you don't need the matching
fingerprints to work out what happened.

- In the middle of the ban period, that user modifies the Mumble
wiki article without explanation, discussions, or any edit summary
text, essentially making the edit hard to detect. That edit replaced
what is listed at the "FlightGear Mumble server" - a server that is
currently paid for by certain FlightGear community members, is used by
many FlightGear users, and has existed for a number of years now -
with his own server.

- The new server transfers full control of an important
communication channel and FlightGear infrastructure to the banned
user, who is one of the 5 listed FGMEMBERS:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160425132 ... ERS/people
.

- The subversive edit was detected by someone and flagged as being
hijacked [4], the text being "Protect page request - Given the recent
actions of a certain group of users, and given that their preferred
method of evangelising is via mumble, I wonder if this page could be
protected to edits, and any servers listed here could receive some
minimal vetting."

- I commented out the text (it is still there), temporarily locked
the wiki article, deleted the supporting forum post, and raised
awareness of the situation here on the devel mailing list.

These events may not be in exact chronological order. But they
clearly show that this is not on the level of simply a "confusion of
ordering [of] the mumble servers".

Regards,

Edward"


First off: I do not know who is writer556, but I do know he talked to me on Mumble during the period of my ban, i will check my firewalls, and systems, for strange accesses.

Also: There are about 50people in FGMEMBERS, even "PRIVACY CONCERN -- name removed by it0uchpods" is there, and he doesn't even use the jwocky forum. But I choose to have my membership public.

PRIVACY CONCERN -- image removed by it0uchpods

A HYJACK FROM FGMEMBERS? REALLY? bugman are we done jumping to conclusions?

The server is made by Falcon, I quoted his message he sent in mumble, to me, and forgot to edit it. (AN HONEST MISTAKE), oringally the server was mine, but I gave it to him after the "offical" server was back up.

I later corrected this, if you look on the forum.

So how is this a hyjack from FGMEMBERS?

Also, not everyone on the fgmembers is public, as seen above.

PRIVACY CONCERN -- image removed by it0uchpods

Regards,

[curt]

itouchpods: please stop your personal and proxie vendettas and go back to productive, positive flightgear activities. No one wants to see or hear your perpetual negative crusade against specific FlightGear personnel and infrastructures. This is getting *extremely* old.

[Octal450]

@curt, but its OK to on a mailing list I can't reply to accuse me of "hyjacking"?

I keep getting painted as being "the bad guy" for helping? Hmm.

[Hooray]

If you disagree with a wiki action, please use the wiki to discuss wiki matters, and expect such postings/threads here to be locked/removed.
It is unfortunate that bugman decided to use the mailing list to respond to the allegations there (and I told him so), but neither the forum nor the mailing list are the right places to discuss these matters - if you disagree with something that took place on the wiki, you should also use the wiki to discuss that:

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#forum

Besides, some of the accusations may be inaccurate, but the behavior you are showing now (again), proves the point of the action taken - so this is no longer about false accusations, but about your current behavior - which is also distracting from other things, such as a few interesting postings you made recently - I for once, don't want to look at your topics currently, even though I could probably add a few comments regarding Nasal or Canvas - but all this is hugely irritating, and you should really consider leaving it alone, or using another forum/place for it, such as the JBW forum.

[curt]

1. You need to be subscribed to the developers mailing list to post there ... this is a basic antispam protective measure and a way to help hold people accountable for their postings. If you can't post there, then you haven't taken the time to subscribe.
2. You need to be a good citizen on the developer mailing list to maintain posting privileges. In very rare cases when we have had problems on the developer list, the user has their moderator flag set and their postings are reviewed individually, they are stlil allowed to subscribe and receive the email discussion.
3. Because of abuse of unsubscribing and resubscribing, new subscribers to the developer mailing list start out with the moderator flag active, and this is cleared after their first legitimate post.
4. I wouldn't recommend going and signing up to the developer mailing list simply to pursue your personal arguments or you will quickly visit point #2.
5. Picking fights with the forum moderators and long time flightgear developers and contributors is just unproductive ... you ruin your credibility with everyone except your own tight group of friends.
6. You quickly cry censorship and freedom when anyone questions you. These are bully tactics. But we also require civility and order in a public forum. You are not allowed to say any garbage you want at any time here. Life just doesn't work that way and you are fooling yourself if you think you entitled to be mean to everyone you want to be mean to.

[Octal450]

@hooray, fine

@curt If you could lock this stupid thread I should not have created please!

lets end the disagreement, and move on.

Regards,

[curt]

Hi itouchpods,

Ok, I will lock this thread and let it fade into the past. But for the future, please: We are really sick of battles here on the forum. We are really sick of battles about battles on the forum. We are really sick of battles about battles about battles about battles on the forum. We are really sick of seeing the same small subset of users being the primary contributors to these wars. Once the arguments start, the information and helpfulness of the words goes to zero, the tactics become mean spirited and unfair, and it just becomes all about taking verbal shots at each other. We are just really sick of seeing this same stuff continue and continue and continue, by mostly the same people.

Best regards,

Curt.