Where did the topic go?

[Hooray]

honestly, if I were a moderator around here, I would suggest/discuss to ban all posters in this, and similar, threads, including myself, for at least 30 days, so that the dust can settle - because what is currently taking place is that this is extremely harming the project/s, by taking up tons of time and other resources - so that it would be a wise decision to remove the corresponding people from this thread/forum, so that people can focus on more interesting things.

[wlbragg]

Nooooo
FGMEMBERS allows developers to work on planes that are no longer included with FGaddon.

Why are they no longer included in fgaddon?

It allows the planes to not die!

Why are they no longer included in fgaddon and dying?

How does it harm the community?

It harms "me" because if it was included in fgaddon I could be reasonably sure it meets the GPL standards we strive for and trust that should I want to start working and contributing to it that I have a solid, legal foundation.
For personal use fgmembers is not an issue for me. To ever contributing source material from fgmembers to fgaddon is an issue for me so effectively all aircraft in fgmembers is now only useful to me in private. If there is one aircraft that is in fgmembers that could exist in fgaddon but doesn't, then I feel that it is harmful. That may only be my personal opinion and may not even resonate with other members. But by my way of thinking, fgaddon should strive to contain all worthy aircraft available.

who are these people that say they can't?

Can't or shouldn't? Anyone should also have the right to say why anything "shouldn't" happen. As we can see, no one here can enforce why it can't happen. But just because it does happen, doesn't mean it is a good thing for FG as a whole.

My entire point to any of this is that I like this project and want to see it continue to grow. But I don't want to see competing interests. Advertising to draw away potential content without a counter move to make sure what can gets back to the core is enough to loose my support. It's divisive and adversarial. Why don't we see these issues with many other parallel content providers?

[Octal450]

Why are they no longer included in fgaddon?

Really? You said it yourself! If they aren't included in FGaddon anymore, than they are in FGMEMBERS.

It allows the planes to not die!

If they are not in FGaddon, and not in FGMEMBERS, where are they???

For the last thing I don't to quote or stuart or bugman or etc will come and edit my post :angry:
Well all aircraft include a license. There are the authors and so on. Just look there

@Hooray
Good idea!.

[wlbragg]

ban all posters

Maybe that is the best solution.

But make no mistake, I decided to trade the time to make a couple more switches for the Shuttle to discuss this instead and if you really want to fire me up, then you just try to take away my ability to decide what I do with my time.

The only other time I would even consider being harmed might be the poor moderators that are keeping an eye on this. But they chose to sign up for it.

Really? You said it yourself! If they aren't included in FGaddon anymore, than they are in FGMEMBERS.

Sorry, you lost me.
If they can be GPL compatible and meet core criteria why are they not being introduced to fgaddon. Any that don't meet core criteria are self explanatory and that is fine. Same with ai, models, parking etc, if it goes to either of these two competing interest instead of the core for no reason other than they are there competing, then it's harmful, period and I am against it.

[Octal450]

Yep my bad, they have hangers outside FGMEMBERS and FGADDON. Fine, but if they werer removed from FGaddon, and there was no FGMEMBERS not many might know about the plane.

Regards,

[Hooray]

seriously, it's a pain/gain thing, there's now so much more pain than gain that it's simply worth it removing all the people from this thread, removing the thread and asking people to stop discussing this on the forum, or be prepared to be temporarily banned for at least another 4 weeks, as simple as that - this is harming all the people, and efforts, involved - including fgmembers/terragit or whatever else someone may come up with in the meantime.

This is no longer about free speech, if you think you have to say something, feel free to discuss it at the JBW's place, let's not hijack all these threads by doing crazy cross-postings. I don't know what fgmembers et al can come up with, but if they are as clever as they seem to be, they could also need a little more time and support to implement their ideas, rather than have politics discussed all over the place in every topic - if you'd like to support a 3rd party effort, just do it, no matter if that meants terragit, terrafs or osgEarth - these threads, and the kinds of postings we are making here, are not helping our project at all, no matter if your project is mainly terrasync/terragear, terragit or something completely different.

My suggestion would be for the JBW/fgmembers folks to set up a dedicated FAQ regarding terragit, and stop posting things on this forum.

I don't agree with everything said, or done, by those who are considered "the establishment" by others, even though I realized that I am also considered to be a part of this establishment, but it is true that this behavior is having a huge toll, and while some of our responses were also unfortunate/premature in hindsight, they seem to have been warranted given how things are now unfolding - i.e. there is something to be protected here, even if it's just our own sanity - just imagine for a second, people like Hooray, Thorsten, Stuart etc would register at thejbabooerwcky.coim and make certain postings there, even just cross-postings, on a daily basis - sooner or later, you'd too realize that this is no longer about "free speech".

terragit can work for some people, and to prove that, the corresponding people are well advised to spend their time developing, and documenting, their work - had terragit, or some more advanced iteration/manifestation of its underlying idea, been available when the mapserver shut down, it may have been adopted meanwhile.

But what is currently taking place here is freakin' ridiculous and harming even the people working on the terragit setup, what is so difficult to spend your time helping Israel and Jabberwocky to actually develop, test and document their work rather than spend so much time flaming around here ? Maybe you really can come up with something much better than what we have ?? If you believe so, you should prove that and try to support the people doing all the development.

If you don't think they have anything to bring to the table just go on as is and continue to undermine their efforts by behaving like you do ...


And if you want to discuss fgmembers vs. fgaddon, be prepared to create a FAQ and publish that on your website, no need to discuss things here - there is a long fgaddon article on the wiki that you can use as inspiration

[SHM]

@Hooray So do the wiki page get restored?
It would be mighty useful and none of the non sense will be dealt here.
Just the wiki page for people who have heard about TerraGit and fgmembers and are interested in trying it out.

I hope it makes some sense.

SHM

[Octal450]

@Hooray They are welcome to registar http://www.thejabberwocky.net and crosspost ... if they talk bs, it will be there for the world to read FOREVER.

[wkitty42]

@Hooray So do the wiki page get restored?
It would be mighty useful and none of the non sense will be dealt here.
Just the wiki page for people who have heard about TerraGit and fgmembers and are interested in trying it out.

don't those other guys have their own wiki? if not, why not? surely they can post all they like about their terragit in their own wiki where it belongs, right?

[SHM]

Ok so now you want to split the wiki too.

[Hooray]

@Hooray So do the wiki page get restored?
It would be mighty useful and none of the non sense will be dealt here.
Just the wiki page for people who have heard about TerraGit and fgmembers and are interested in trying it out.

I hope it makes some sense.

SHM

Regarding the wiki page, or the wiki as a whole, we/I specifically made the offer to use it to also document "3rd party" efforts, including fgmembers (but also T4T), even at a time when things were increasingly problematic - we suggested that people team up to document their work, and create/maintain such articles to present information in a factual fashion, without having any heated debates. Personally, I helped bootstrap a number of such articles - but I have yet to see any response from fgmembers, Bomber or others to actually follow up on such offers. In fact, it's been made clear that these people prefer to use their own infrastructure, which is fine with me - so I suggest to use their forum, or some free host, to provide that information.

Given how the situation has evolved meanwhile, I no longer feel comfortable re-stating that offer without having coordinated it with the people who are running, and paying, for the very infrastructure these people want to use, given that they've been causing tons of headache around here - I am not paying for the forum hosting, wiki hosting or anything else related to FlightGear's infrastructure, but I can imagine that some contribtuors are possibly more than just a little "irritated" seeing how long-term contributors are supposed to pay for infrastructure, like a multiplayer server, so that people can use it who explicitly disagree with the way the project is running, or even just certain infrastructure (think mapserver/terrasync or fgaddon).

Thus, I honestly do not feel qualified/competent to re-iterate any offers to use the official FlightGear offer. My personal opinion however is that it /should/ be allowed to present fgmembers/terragit as 3rd party efforts - not unlike osgEarth support or any other 3rd party effort that hasn't been integrated (so far); but that is assuming that the corresponding parties, and people, find a way to align themselves well within the existing ecosystem, i.e. play by the rules - even if just referring to the wiki and the rules there.
To be completely honest, I used to have some privileges on the forum/wiki, too - but even I have received messages from senior contributors like Stuart or Curt suggesting that I reconsider the nature, and degree, of my involvement given some of my statements, postings and actions (on the forum and the wiki), and I have also been told that my account may be temporarily disabled should I refuse to comply with certain requests - thus, in all seriousness, it seems only fair for fgmembers (or any other 3rd party) to also play by the rules, or consider to use their own infrastructure - which is not necessarily such a bad thing; point in case, look at Thorsten's postings when he responded to my suggestion to make some of his rendering articles available via $FG_ROOT/Docs, i.e. when he explicitly stated that he preferred to use his own hosting, despite also having write access for the main website (including the forum/wiki etc obviously).

I have never talked to Curt or any of the other wiki admins about re-instating an article documenting fgmembers, but as far I am concerned, I am more than willing to unlock the article again and observe how this unfolds if that means that we can stop what's going on on the forum, while volunteering my own sparetime to make sure that this either works out, or is dealt with accordingly should there be any need for "moderation".

Then again, there obviously is the very real possibility to use 3rd party hosting, and given fgmembers' (Israel's) familiarity with github, any such documents are likely to have better/safer hosting than anything hosted via *.flightgear.org given the layers of redundancy in place for anything involving github - thus, my recommendation would be to use github for anything that is there to stay indefinitely - we've seen flightgear related infrastructure fail more than once, including several major data losses (look at the recent mapserver dilemma (wiki)); thus, github looks like a reasonable choice to me.

PS: I don't think this is about "splitting" the wiki at all: back when fgmembers was still unknown, I specifically got in touch with Bomber about having a T4T specific wiki portal (area), so were are generally quite accommodating whenever someone wants to try something novel with FG, including stuff that may not align well with the rest of the project or its developers - many of these developments make it into the newsletter each month, but the people behind these efforts also aren't much of a PITA obviously - but otherwise, there really isn't much of a difference

[Bomber]

The only reason you're unsure is because of the negative propaganda

[Octal450]

The only reason you're unsure is because of the negative propaganda

+9999

[Hooray]

no, I am not unsure because of anything we've said or done, but for exactly the reasons I mentioned: there's a certain history to be taken into account here, and I am not the one paying for the hosting/infrastructure, and I am also not the one shouldering all that work resulting from the kind of problematic behavior shown, thus it's really not my call, it would be rather misguided for me to re-state such an invitation under the current conditions, and as long as I am seeing these kinds of polemics, I am not sufficiently motivated to waste any more of my time debating with any of you, I would rather see all of us forcefully removed for a whole month - especially those participating in this thread without trying to add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

And quite frankly, I find the last two postings not the slightest bit helpful in response to what I have posted, and would haved hoped you spent a little more time coming up with something better, or simply stop posting until you have something substantial to contribute to the discussion.

[stuart]

HI All,

Back with my moderator hat on.

Bomber and it0uchpods have been banned for 24 hours.

I'm also locking this topic, as it has degenerated into another FGMEMBERS/FGAddon argument generating far more heat than light.

-Stuart (the mod)