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Re: Forum Rules

Postby stuart » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:57 pm

Hi All,

Regarding mentioning FGMEMBERs : This is a change in the last couple of days (or perhaps a clarification). The moderators feel that provided people can discuss these things in a civilized way, then there is no need to ban discussion of FGMEMBERS, or references to the FGMEMBERS repositories. However, that's clearly subject to the overall forum rules, and we will moderate on a case-by-case basis. If we find that FGMEMBERS discussion causes a lot of flame-wars again, we may revisit that decision.

A couple of additional guidelines:
- There remains a ban in place quoting banned members of the forum (specifically Jabberwocky and IAHM-COL) except in exceptional circumstances. Please contact a Moderator if you feel this is necessary.
- For aircraft that are duplicated between FGAddon and FGMEMBERS, the FGAddon repository version should be referenced.

Lydiot - I think you may be mis-informed. I definitely did send a PM asking someone to be sensitive when mentioning FGMEMBERS (which pre-dates this), but I don't think I've threatened anyone with a ban in a very, very, long time.

-Stuart
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby Johan G » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:29 pm

stuart wrote in Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:57 pm:- There remains a ban in place quoting banned members of the forum (specifically Jabberwocky and IAHM-COL) except in exceptional circumstances. Please contact a Moderator if you feel this is necessary.

Due to having been contacted as a moderator, I think it is ok to continue cross post in the USA TOUR and Festival of FlightGear related topics (as long as discussion is kept in a friendly tone of course :wink: ). It is easy to see that it is needed for planning of those regular multiplayer events.
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby legoboyvdlp » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:34 pm

Thank you, Johan :)
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby Lydiot » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:32 pm

stuart wrote in Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:57 pm:Lydiot - I think you may be mis-informed. I definitely did send a PM asking someone to be sensitive when mentioning FGMEMBERS (which pre-dates this), but I don't think I've threatened anyone with a ban in a very, very, long time.

-Stuart


ok
Last edited by stuart on Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove some quoting (seen as this is a topic about forum rules ;) )
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby Hooray » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:48 pm

stuart wrote in Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:57 pm:There remains a ban in place quoting banned members of the forum (specifically Jabberwocky and IAHM-COL) except in exceptional circumstances.


I wasn't even aware of such restrictions (despite being listed as one of those helping maintain the forum...), and without meaning to offend anybody: I think we need to tread very carefully here - i.e. if differentiating clearly between quotes that are obviously used to make up for someone's ban (campaigning via new user accounts and/or existing users), or if the quoted content is relevant in the context of the corresponding discussion.

My concern here being that maintaining such a "ban" on these terms would possibly substantiate all those claims we've seen about the FlightGear project using censorship against people we don't agree with.

As you, and others, undoubtedly know - many of us often don't agree with the way the project is headed, so I find it very problematic to automatically ban quotes just on the notion that the quoted person was previously banned.

Equally, I have myself participated in a number of debates with some of the most senior contributors, and former core developers - the most recent example being the infamous FlightGear Development Push thread - and it has been suggested that my role in that thread might have gotten me banned from this forum (certainly if I were affiliated with fgmembers) - and I did in fact receive a PM from you, Stuart, suggesting that I reconsider my participation here based on my paricipation in such debates.

Thus, given the statement above, I am slightly irritated, i.e. that just quoting someone who got banned, automatically implies consequences for the person quoting that person.

Looking only at my own involvement, participation in the FlightGear Development Push might have gotten me banned, but there's roughly 8k other postings I made that people should be free to quote, unrelated to my account having been banned/removed.

And quite frankly, I would not want to be part of a community where we cultivate/encourage this kind of attitude towards opinions that don't agree with the "establishment", just because people criticize the project and suggest ways to improve things - at that point, the term "censorship" becomes entirely valid.

Thus I do hope that these rules are augmented and not just automatically enforced - because at that point I will definitely reconsider my involvement, because the FlightGear project would be headed in a very unfortunate direction in my opinion, for the sake of convenience...
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby Johan G » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:07 pm

stuart wrote in Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:57 pm:- There remains a ban in place quoting banned members of the forum (specifically Jabberwocky and IAHM-COL) except in exceptional circumstances.

Hooray wrote in Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:48 pm:I wasn't even aware of such restrictions (despite being listed as one of those helping maintain the forum...) [...]

Ditto
Hooray wrote in Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:48 pm:Looking only at my own involvement, participation in the FlightGear Development Push might have gotten me banned, but there's roughly 8k other postings I made that people should be free to quote, unrelated to my account having been banned/removed.

You have a very, very good point there.
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby PINTO » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:09 pm

Hooray, I believe that when they say quoting, they mean taking what a banned member said in another forum and "quoting" (i.e. cross posting) it here; essentially allowing those people to work around the ban. This has happened in a couple USA tour threads.
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby stuart » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:33 pm

The reference to quoting banned people was was badly worded. It is regarding cross-posting from other forums rather than quoting previous posts. I perhaps should have said "cross-posting" rather than "quoting". Apologies that wasn't made clear - I appear to have created a great deal of confusion here.

It was in response to an issue last year where someone cross-posted a comment from the FGMEMBERS forum that was somewhat inflammatory and a subsequent question of whether it was OK to cross-post things like organizing the USA TOUR and other events from the FGMEMBERS forum, and didn't touch on the reason for them getting banned. We generally think that's OK in moderation. It obviously isn't appropriate to cross-post and quote comments they might make that were the reason for them getting banned in the first place! Nor do I think it's appropriate to allow banned members to take part in these forums by proxy in general.

Re-quoting from material already on this forum is generally fine, on the basis that it "passe" moderation when it was originally posted. However: you are responsible for what you post, which includes anything you quote. If you decide to quote a particularly inflammatory statement made by someone else 6 months ago and rekindle a flamewar*, the moderators are going to take a particularly dim view and you can't just claim innocence because you're quoting someone else.

I think there's a risk of people getting a bit hot under the collar about a relatively small issue here. Clearly the context of a particular topic is going to be relevant here as it is in all moderation decisions, and moderators will use their judgement, as they have done for the past 9 years (for better or worse). In particular, we're not going to be banning people without very good reason and only after a huge amount of consideration, warnings to users, and private discussion between the moderators. I think we've banned 3 people in 9 years, and I don't anticipate the introduction of these Forum rules to change that ban-rate significantly.

-Stuart

* I think that metaphor has been stretched to breaking point now :)
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby bugman » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:05 am

Comparing these forum rules to those of other open source projects, for example:


It seems like all points are reasonable and present in these other projects as well. If anything, these other projects show that the current set of FlightGear forum rules are quite lenient.

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Re: Forum Rules

Postby Mike-G » Fri May 12, 2017 3:33 pm

Hi
Not sure if this is the correct place
But i have a complaint
on Multiplayer on Friday 17:10 BST there were some players signed in with obscene call signs
they were asked to remove these , but they just made changes for the worse
i was doing ATC at EGSS at the time and there were some ladies with me
i think that this sort of conduct is to be avoided and the culprits should be warned and if they continue then banned

there should be a way to report this while on line
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Re: Forum Rules

Postby CaptB » Fri May 12, 2017 4:00 pm

@Mike-G

FG Multiplayer is not regulated, you can only use the ignore feature to not have the offending traffic shown, and encourage others to do so as well.
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