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Back from being banned ...

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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:53 am

Would be lovely to meet everyone in real life :D
Maybe when the current generation of teenagers have all started college, we could start a gofundme for airplane tickets for us all to meet up :D
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby hamzaalloush » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:35 am

Jabberwocky wrote in Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:27 pm:Thorsten hadn't time to look at the 787? Or looking where FGMEMBERS actually got the last version of the CRJ from?


I see you have some background about this, where did the CRJ version come from? you can clarify.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby Thorsten » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:03 am

So yes, these issues happen, and the community all together works to maintain compliance.
It is not a problem that exists because FGMEMBERS


It is a problem that exists largely because of you and FGMEMBERS design philosophy - lack of a gatekeeping process and your misunderstanding of how copyright legislation works have created it. In other words - you have broken the law.

You (or others) may have taken action in the cases which were obvious and pointed out to you, but as others have pointed out before, it is very likely given your attitude of committing without verification that there are many ore license violations all over the place. You think the problem is absent because you made a few cosmetic changes? Think again.

And as long as there is a lack of a clear gatekeeping process, it is likely that more are added.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby hamzaalloush » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:22 am

Thorsten is right, such practices is unsustainable without gate keeping, the FGMEMBERS repository illegally distributed as a platform the CRJ700-family for more than 5 months since Aprli 7th(against the will of the author i add)

I wonder what would have happened if i hadn't stated publicly these issues, they are in fact, as Thorsten explained, nothing more than cosmetic changes, not until someone is tasked with the assignment of reviewing and auditing sources of content as they come(gate keeping), not after the fact, how would you do it otherwise, unless you want to involve more people with these potential violations, case in point, Henning had to re-write history of his repository just to protect himself from your commit.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby stuart » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:05 am

Hi All,

Just to respond to Jabberwocky's comment about moderators being neutral.

My responsibility as a moderator on this forum is to ensure that it runs smoothly for the benefit of FlightGear users and the FlightGear project as a whole. There is no requirement that I act neutral in every discussion.

I absolutely stand by the position being presented on the mailing list, and which I drafted. Fundamentally, I do not think that FGMEMBERS is to the benefit of the FlightGear project.

However, the banning of Jabberwocky was no because he is a FGMEMBERS proponent - he was banned for a personal attack that crossed the line after having been previously warned against doing so. It's important not to get confused here.

-Stuart
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby KL-666 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:11 am

Somehow some logic is missing from my brain.

Why would one want to make something that is different into something that is the same? What does a second fgaddon have to offer extra?

I'd suggest to recognize fgmembers is different, and probably make a *statement* about that (not a repetition of some internal debate). Just say something like:

Fgmembers is an operation outside flightgear. We can and do not control any of it's actions or content, so we can not take responsibility for anything done there.

Having said that, there is no reason to interfere with that operation, using all sorts of arguments. Doing so would actually look quite awkward.

Kind regards, Vincent
Last edited by KL-666 on Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby Thorsten » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:21 am

Having said that, there is no reason to interfere with that operation, using all sorts of arguments. Doing so would actually look quite awkward.


This forum (like any other in fact) and the FG project are under a legal obligation to not offer links to illegal content. So while there's no reason to interfere with whatever FGMEMBERS happens to do on its own infrastructure, FGMEMBERS actually has to use its own infrastructure (and weather the associated legal risks) to promote its content - FG can not do this if we want to avoid potential liability.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby KL-666 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:35 am

That is not really interfering, but discussing ones own linking policy. Keep in mind that there are many links to private repositories fg has no control over. Do include these cases too in that discussion.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby Thorsten » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:52 am

I don't know what else you mean by interfering, sorry. As I've said a couple of times, what FGMEMBERS does outside FG infrastructure is its own business and happens at its own legal risk.

There are no plans for a co-ordinated denial of service attack on FGMEMBERS in case you're wondering :-)
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:29 pm

So why is Israel denied access to mpserver 12 and why does his mpserver12 page have an 808 recorder malfunctioning on it?
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby curt » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:26 pm

The mpserver resources are all privately managed on hardware and network connections paid for by these individuals. The individual admins handle the setup and management of these individual servers. As far as I know, there are no 'official' multiplayer. It is entirely a cooperative, community driven system.

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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:14 pm

Oh and in case, someone wonders about posts of mine "disappearing" or being "deleted for political convenience", I have them copied over to the Free Speech forum on my www.thejabberwocky.net domain before Stuart could get to them. Silencing came a bit too late!
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby wlbragg » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:54 pm

Free Speech forum

Fun reading!

I might be considered one of those silent majority except anyone that has any say in this matter knows my perception of this issue (on both sides of it).

I see this now as a legal issue, how close can it be affiliated with FG. Because of the

IAHM-COL wrote in Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:57 pm:FGADDon is providing a safe heaven, and a more robust and solid platform where aircraft is protected from the fast currents of FGMEMBERS.


Apparently by design, 3rd party repos that often have work included into FG are isolated from it.

IAHM-COL wrote in Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:57 pm:I am definitely interested in see how FG project adapt to these challenges and funnels them for the common good of our community

+1

I would hope that any decisions taken by core will protect FG yet use any and all available data to its best advantage. That really is my only concern.

So far, I see no one interested in using anything in fgmembers to enhance fgaddon (sad but true). I am aware of the potential filtering that might be required and the work involved, but on a plane by plane basis, that is not so insurmountable (cherry picking is still possible).

fgmembers aside, I don't see past questionable decisions being corrected, the "Dash" incident. I think I was the original post bringing this one to light. It was deeply disappointing that this academia work wasn't included in fgaddon. It still isn't!

So nothing in FG is perfect, some a little more than others, What we do have is incredible and needs protecting, it also needs growth.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby DFaber » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:44 pm

Jabberwocky wrote in Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:14 pm:Oh and in case, someone wonders about posts of mine "disappearing" or being "deleted for political convenience", I have them copied over to the Free Speech forum on my http://www.thejabberwocky.net domain before Stuart could get to them. Silencing came a bit too late!


Clever, that way you preserver all of your posts AND get rid of the nasty criticism done over here. Really clever ...
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby Lydiot » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:00 pm

Jabberwocky wrote in Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:14 pm:Oh and in case, someone wonders about posts of mine "disappearing" or being "deleted for political convenience", I have them copied over to the Free Speech forum on my http://www.thejabberwocky.net domain before Stuart could get to them. Silencing came a bit too late!


You may have copied some "disappeared" posts over, but we have no way of knowing which ones you're thinking about without reading ALL of it both here and there. I'm thinking that won't happen. It would make more sense to 'somehow' make people easily find that offending post.

And as others pointed out, care must be taken for this other forum not to become a place purely of discontent where the impression is given that content is one way or another focused on promoting a certain view. I've actually been a part of a forum created for various reasons in which there ended up being a struggle between opposing views; the one which was a hardcore anti-prior-establishment set of views, focused on bad-mouthing and complaining, and another opposing view which was simply trying to live up to a freer but just forum for expression.
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