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Back from being banned ...

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:16 pm

well, only for a short time, I guess. Since political motivated deleting of posts, abuse of moderator privileges (by one or two special moderators, not all), and now, as one can see on the dev-list, attempts of automated silencing of any opposition is the new standard here around, I guess, I won't have for long the opportunity to post anything.
BUT STUART, READ BEFORE ABUSING YOUR MODERATOR PRIVILEGES AGAIN FOR THE POLITICAL EXPEDIENCE:

The first time, some people tried to whip something through by deciding it behind closed doors and then abusing privileges on board and mailing list, you got FGMEMBERS and obviously, it is here to stay.
Now, as prove, you didn't learn, you tried it again. Thus, to ensure freedom of speech, you forced reaction. Guess what we have now? Right ... and thus, you are once more too late in your attempts to silence opposition. Now, this will of course lead to a further escalation (I will actually post this in copy on another4 forum as well so your chances to cover your tracks are zilch) and you and your little bunch of self-declared masters will accuse me of splitting the community (something actually you did when you abuse your moderator rights for the political goal and thus, forced my hand) and some will believe you others will not. And you will probably go ahead what you plan on the dev-list and in IRC, but here is a word for the wise: Every time, you do that, you force reactions. So before you start the little defamation campaign discussed on your dev-list, you may want to think hard, what could be the reaction? Or speaking about reactions, what could possible be my reaction if you decide to abuse your moderator privileges once more by deleting this post?
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:26 pm

yes. I completely understand you JWocky

Here is the problem I completely fail to see:
How is FGMEMBERS really affecting their core infrastructure? How is it preventing FGADDon commiters to do their work?

We are even blame of having forks of Flightgear, and place in the same pocket with groups such as flightprosim, which is outrageous.

They forgot what they plead under GPL license, about how software development could be decentralized, and how FGMEMBERS all does is have a copy of their planes for us to tinker and learn and enjoy the software.

They panic because I offer the system to anyone willing to try, and they consider that inviting others to enjoy the advantages that FGMEMBERS has goes against their core system at all. Well, it does not and that is a sick lie.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:31 pm

http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mai ... sg34456973

stuart wrote:HI Guys,

We're also getting quite a lot of confusion, FUD and some aggravation
on the forum as well, which is leading to increased moderation load
and generally making the forum less useful.

Torsten D and I discussed the situation last night on the weekly
hangout. We think it would be a good idea to produce an official
"statement" regarding FGMEMBERS, as we did a while back when there was
confusion about companies selling FlightGear commercially under a
different name (http://www.flightgear.org/flightprosim.html). The
idea is that it would reflect the consensus of the core development
group, and include an FAQ to help answer questions users or aircraft
developers may have.

We can then point users to it, and link to it from the wiki or forum.
It might even be possible to create automatic links from the wiki or
forum to reduce the manual overhead.

I'll draft something and post it to the mailing list for comment,
hopefully tonight.

Best regards,

-Stuart
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby DFaber » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:56 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:31 pm:http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/flightgear-devel/thread/CAP3ntyvo95TVjYJBiSuWf-91LFbOkSfRxJtmRjOUYJ7Dg7ynxw%40mail.gmail.com/#msg34456973



It appears you have deliberatey omitted the very first Post in this thread:

http://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/mailman/message/34455221/

It talks about you manipulating the wiki multiple times to promote fgmembers as an "official" alternative to fgaddon, which it isn't.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:02 pm

I dont promote it as Official DFaber :)

FGMEMBERS is not official and as it stands now, It won't be official for now [since that requires a consensus by the community of core developers, which endorse FGADDon instead]

It is alternative to FGADDon to host and develop aircrafts. That's it. I don't see why, the fact that FGADDon is official, that should be a deterrent for me, or other people to try it out, and if they like its openness, just enjoy it?

Those that need to use the official aircraft, happy moment! it exists!

I abide from the Free Software movement, and thus, I rarely flinch about trying out any optionable version around. I even switch my linux distro from time to time. Git with submodules even provides you the advantage to swicht the repository you are being pointed to, and that is free and decentralized. (well, FGADDon is not a git repo, that's that)

In fact, as an user, I can have FGADDon and FGMEMBER aircraft living together in my hard drive, I can point FG to either, and it works just fine.

That FGADDon IS official -- that's not under discussion. That's a fact.

That because FGADDon is official, FGMEMBERS has to be forbiddent? That I found incomprehensible. Totally unprecedented in the free software communities as well. It smell propietary so heavily here!!
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:04 pm

And about the wiki, 1. most of those edits are not mine. 2. It can be edited and corrected by anyone, and all edits remain fully transparent.
So, easy fix.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby DFaber » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:15 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:02 pm:I dont promote it as Official DFaber :)

FGMEMBERS is not official and as it stands now, It won't be official for now.


Strange. Your wiki edit mentioned in the Thread http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php?title=FlightGear_hangars&diff=82285&oldid=79652 suggests that the "Git Hangar" (fgmembers) contains the same as the "SVN Hangar" (fgaddon). At least it doesn't mention that there may be substantial differences between both.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:21 pm

that's a fair point. FGMEMBER does contain more planes that FGADDON.
Every plane in FGADDON is also contained in FGMEMBERS and chances are that the FGMEMBER aircraft in addition has been modified. (for better or worse)

In many cases, I remember people in the forum indicating that a given aircraft fails, and I suggest to try the working version available in FGMEMBERS as well.

So, yes you are right, there could be substantial differences between both aircraft sets. [Now, each user will need to do the testing and decide which aircraft version suits him better. I can make such subjective call for everyone! ]
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby DFaber » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:28 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:21 pm:In many cases, I remember people in the forum indicating that a given aircraft fails, and I suggest to try the working version available in FGMEMBERS as well.

That implies you are not willing to give anything back to fgaddon. So fgmembers is a hostile fork of fgaddon, taking everything it can grab.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:52 pm

oh DFaber! that's not true.

FGMEMBERS is not hostile fork. We are just a fork (of the aircrafts).

We rebase FGADDon commits once every week. That in fact because we appreciate and value the work done there.

I can't commit to FGADDon. But work done in GPL aircraft that also belong to FGMEMBERS, can be used in FGADDon, and I have no problem or objection to that. GPL indicates that there is not such complication. Who and how such copying FGMEMBERS content into FGADDon is done is something that can be figure it out, naturally, but the fact it does not happen does not reflect badly upon us. The material is there. It is open source, can be read, study and scrutinize, and study whether FGADDon can use it as well.

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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:08 pm

Actually, FGADDON is the hostile side here. Since it is gate kept without any transparent rules it remains a closed repository controlled only by a few people. The very same people attacked, abused privileges in the mailing list and here and behaved entirely uncivilized down to the level of slander and libel. So, who is the hostile party?
But the main point here is, some always wanted to suppress any information that such a thing like FGMEMBERS exists in the first place. Information suppression - the first refuge of political manipulators, isn't it? Active defamation campaigns (see the reference to those selling FG in the mailing list extracts above) is the third step (silencing opposition is the second, but that we had already). So, step one failed and hurt everyone ... step two failed and hurt everyone ... now you are discussing step three on the mailing list int he hope, regular users don't look there?
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby legoboyvdlp » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:23 pm

What a drama.
I won't comment.
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:34 pm

I will comment, thou.

I think the central point is that FGADDon is also not an hostile fork.

What I have seen is a few people, with animosity attacking and being hostile towards FGMEMBERS. Yes, those people have FGADDon commit priviledges, but that does not imply the whole fork is hostile.

What is worrying and concerning to me is that the Officials, such as Curt and Stuart (as forum moderator) instead of opposing and stopping such uncivilized behavior by their team contributors, let it go unrestricted. Yes, that makes it look really bad, and it suddenly becomes an official attack.

But I urge not to loose scope of the matter and realize that actually the few people running the aggressions are really not acting on the project behalf, or the FGADDon behalf. And I call to a cease of fire. It will be great if those with the ability to control the acts of some of their collaborators, finally agreed to come and talk the issues and how to address them directly. I will be happy to hold a skype or phone conference call, or something when we can come person to person to realize that there are not such big gapes or differences of interests. I will be more than happy that we could bring the community together~!~~
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby stuart » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:48 pm

Hi All,

I'm not particularly interested in engaging in a discussion about political motivation etc. There is a thread on the mailing list discussing the relationship between the core development group and FGMEMBERS which I would refer people to.

A couple of points however:
- Jabberwocky was banned for 24hrs for personal attacks after having been explicitly warned. I am satisfied that my actions were reasonable and proportionate. Over the years many other posters have been banned for similar infractions (a couple per year on average I think). In general they have subsequently mended their ways and I would hope that Jabberwocky will do the same and continue to contribute to the forum.

- Apologies if my post to the mailing list associated FGMEMBERS with FPS. The intention (and indeed I think my statement was quite clear on this) was that the core FG development group should respond in a similar manner: - by reaching consensus on a draft statement and publishing it to the website. This was quite effective in the case of FPS, and I think would clear up some confusion in this case as well. Clearly FPS and FGMEMBERS represent quite different challenges to the FlightGear project. Note that "challenges" in this case is meant as something that the project has to adapt and respond to, rather than necessarily something antagonistic.

- I disagree completely with the characterisation that Jabberwocky and IAHM-COL are making of the core developer groups intentions, behaviour and indeed the history of events. However I'm not interested in refuting each point. I have better things to do with my time. Suffice it to say that those interested can read the mailing list archives.

For the moment I'm not going to lock this topic. Personally I've got quite a thick skin and I consider Jabberwocky's accusations to be not worth a response. However, I reserve the right to close this topic in the future, either for infractions or as a result of decisions reach on the mailing list.

Best regards,

-Stuart (the mod, and core developer for about the last decade)
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Re: Back from being banned ...

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:49 pm

I never said, FGADDON is a fork. If that was the impression, I apologize for misunderstandable wording. However, some people with commit privileges in FGADDON are outright hostile against FGMEMBERS and on a personal level. And if someone tries to get all hostile on me, I will put off the kid's gloves at some point.
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