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OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

OpenRadar is a standalone radar screen which connects to the FlightGear multiplayer servers. It is currently being developed.

OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby WoodSTokk » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:35 pm

As we found out in thread EDDF-Triangle OpenRadar does not relay v2 packets to the ORCAM session.
It relays only v1 packets. Therefor, the ATCs ask every pilot in the controlled area to switch down to v1 ('visible to all').
In the near future the support of v1 in newer FG versions will be dropped and ORCAM cant show any aircraft.
Actually workaround is to connect ORCAM directly to the MP server, but OpenRadar should be fixed to reduce the load on the MP servers.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby jomo » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:36 pm

I am afraid this new thread is not really helpful!
In my experiences the responsible people should direct discuss problems - and not just hide a statement in a new thread.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby wkitty42 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:07 pm

@jomo: if you notice, this topic is placed in the openradar subforum where the openradar maintainer has a much bigger chance to see it... the flaw is accurately diagnosed and reported... now it is up to the openradar maintainer to drop by, see this topic, and fix the defect...

as you are a major openradar user, if you have contact with said maintainer, perhaps you could contact them and point them in this direction ;)
Last edited by wkitty42 on Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby Richard » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:14 pm

jomo wrote in Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:36 pm:I am afraid this new thread is not really helpful!
In my experiences the responsible people should direct discuss problems - and not just hide a statement in a new thread.


That's the whole point of the thread; to alert the developer of our findings; I also raised a ticket for the OpenRadar developer here https://sourceforge.net/p/openradar/tickets/3/

The other discussion was hidden deep inside the EDDF thread and easily missed.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby jomo » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:50 am

wkitty42 wrote in Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:07 pm:@jomo: as you are a major openradar user, if you have contact with said maintainer, perhaps you could contact them and point them in this direction ;)

Sorry - According to our discussions in the EDDF-Triangle thread it became clear that I do not understand the problem -- except that now there are 2 MP-protocols (V1/V2) that cause problems in our standard ORCAM usage - and the V1/V2 designers state that is a problem in OpenRadar!

For sure I am not the knowledgeable guy that "point" the OpenRadar-designer to anything he should do. I Would suggest that the V1/V2 designer contact the OR designer and explain him what the problem is and what they both can do to fix it. I do not see any role for me in that - except testing after those 2 groups developed a solution.

I worked a lot with the OR-designer and found him very cooperative. I am sure if someone can tell him what the problem is and what should be changed he sure will correct it. See
Code: Select all
E-mail :   wagnerw   (email out of Forum Users)
Website:  http://wiki.flightgear.org/OpenRadar
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:57 pm

@jomo: you are an "interested party" in need of seeing this fixed as soon as possible... the problem affects you directly so you are the logical choice for initial contact about the problem... especially since
  1. you pointed it out
  2. you are severely affected by it
  3. you are (apparently) the most common user of openradar
understanding the problem is not required... there is enough information available in this topic to see and understand the problem for the maintainer to correct the flaw... other's don't use OR as much as you do so they are not as affected by the flaw as you are... some of us participating in these discussions don't use OR at all so the flaw doesn't affect us at all...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby jomo » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:27 am

Sorry that I have no idea how the development in FGFS works. In industries I learned: If one component (lets say "MP") of a product (lets say "FGFS") does disable functions of another component already on the market (let us say "OR") - then
    * both groups get together to define the technicalities of the problem
    * discuss possible solutions
    * implement solutions (as fast as possible)
    * have some customers to test
For me (as the user/customer) I only see the possibilities
    * to report the Problem
    * test the solution
I am very sorry - but I do not see how I could do more!
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby Thorsten » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:28 am

Sorry that I have no idea how the development in FGFS works. In industries I learned: If one component (lets say "MP") of a product (lets say "FGFS") does disable functions of another component already on the market (let us say "OR") - then
* both groups get together to define the technicalities of the problem


FG development generally aims to keep compatibility to what is on the FG repository (Aircraft mostly) and we try to test for breaking changes there, but 3rd party projects (aka not on the FG repository) have to monitor the mailing list themselves for changes in standards / protocols / whatever and ensure compatibility - FG developers generally do not.

So my understanding of the issue is that the FG MP protocol received an update, and OR needs to make the same update since any OR maintainer missed the chance to speak when the MP protocol update was discussed on the mailing list.

Which means that someone needs to tell him.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby wkitty42 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

that's four "yes" to your points, thorsten... you have situation sussed correctly ;)
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby jomo » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:05 am

I am deeply sorry that I (as a user) tried already a second time to get engineering to solve a problem caused by them! (The first time was FGCOM - were we finally had to chg. to MUMBLE). Quite frankly: As a user/customer I do not care what information's are exchanged and where and how and and and.... -- I am interested in: Does it work or not! (And I hope every engineer is interested in his design working properly - independent of if everybody follows the golden rules that shall coordinate many different eng. groups worldwide!)

Well: In this case it did/does NOT work. And even with putting this discussion on the engineering part of the fora I could not find any answer to my main problems:
    * I was told 3 times: Update to FGFS 2017.1 (or higher) and your problem is gone. I answered 3 times: I am since month's on 2018-3.2 - and still have the problem. I never got a comment to that mismatch between suggestion and reality.
    * I also found no answer to the question if now ALL models in all libraries worldwide and also in the local libraries of all users must be updated. I as ATC (that wants to film his customers) has a local Library of over 200 models! (and monthly get more!).
    * I know people that never updated there "wonderful working" FGFS over years! It maybe a good point to "urge" them to update - but till now I saw it as a big plus for FGFS that that was not needed!
But I guess I (as user) do not need answer's to all these problems. So I will continue this on the user-forum "Multiplayer events" to help users!

My suggestion for ATC's is: If using the OR-sessions add a direct link from ORCAM direct to a MP-server! I tested this WoodStock suggestion and it looks ok. Thus You may replace in your OR-CAM Start-command-file:
Code: Select all
--telnet=,,100,,5010, \
--multiplay=in,100,,5010 \
--multiplay=out,100,localhost,5010 \
with
Code: Select all
--telnet=,,100,,5010, \
--prop:/sim/multiplay/txport=5010 \
--prop:/sim/multiplay/txhost=mpserver03.flightgear.org \
Instead" of "mpserver03" you may take your preferred MP-server.

So let us continue to discuss in the user-forum.
Hope this helps.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby Thorsten » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:05 am

I am deeply sorry that I (as a user) tried already a second time to get engineering to solve a problem caused by them! (...) Quite frankly: As a user/customer I do not care what information's are exchanged and where and how and and and.... -- I am interested in: Does it work or not!


Okay, let me try again to correct the misconception here.

FG is not industry, it is OpenSource. You are not a customer, you obtained 'the product' under the GPL license for free with no warranty or claim that it works for you. I am not engineering, I am a volunteer who codes as a hobby and donates coding time to a software you happen to enjoy now and then. I am not a support desk either, I am a volunteer who helps people around in the forum on his spare time.

So - it does not work - we know that. As part of the FG project, my interest is in determining - is there need for any action from the FG project?

The answer is no - you are talking to the wrong people. If you were in the MS Window$ support forum, they would tell you that they didn't write OR or FG and can't fix either. I tell you that FG-side all is a done deal [1] and that the only person who can fix things is the OR maintainer - so you need to make a bug report to him. Nothing else will make OR compatible again.


* I know people that never updated there "wonderful working" FGFS over years! It maybe a good point to "urge" them to update - but till now I saw it as a big plus for FGFS that that was not needed!


If you keep your own setup (MP server, aircraft repository,...) then this is true - but the FG-side infrastructure (terrasync server, some MP servers, aircraft repository...) is geared towards the latest FG version, and if you want terrasync access, you need to respect the current terrasync protocol, if you want to run a new aircraft, you need to have a binary which supports its effects, shaders, FDM tags, animations etc.

It is unreasonable to expect from people who donate time and money to supply this infrastructure for the project that they triple their effort and expenses to keep everything backward-compatible. If you want that kind of infrastructure, you need to come up with a plan to finance it.

[1] The plans for changes to the MP protocol FG-side have been properly announced in advance on the mailing list, have been discussed, it was generally felt (especially by people doing MP a lot!) that the advantages are worth the breakage that is caused and now the changes are done with a very low probability to be reverted. Anyone who feels that his voice should have been heard is encouraged to participate in the discussions on the mailing list and say his piece in time, not when the train has passed.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby wagnerw » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:19 pm

Sorry. I was away for some time and I am still too busy to think into it. As much as I have seen in a short time, OR seems to check if the received packet is V1, if not, it is dropped, ignored also for forwarding.
I need time to think into it and add support for the "new" MP versions into OR. I come back, but I need at least two weeks.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby WoodSTokk » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:29 pm

I dont think so, because if a pilot on protocol v2 enters the airspace of a OR session, it will be displayed.
The beginning of the packets are the same up to the vectors and velocities. Thats exactly the data OR needs to display the contact.
The differences starts after the velocities. So i think OR doesn't understand the property payload and drop packets after processing the beginning.
Yesterday i have a quick look in the code, but i havn't found anything, but this is mostly because i dont know java ;)
We are living since 2 years with that bug. We found out that OR is the problem 2 weeks ago.
We will also survive if OR goes fixed in 4 or more weeks ;)
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby wagnerw » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:12 am

Thank you for understanding my situation, there is really a lot to do in the moment.

I had another view. I could not debug it, because (my version of) debian ships a 2016 version of flightgear. I just installed the flatpack version and can switch between new and old protocol.

I still wonder, why it works at all, because the protocol version check is the first it does and it does not allow anything other than 1.1
Maybe the MP Server recognizes OR as 1.1 client and sends somewhat compatible packages.
But already the callsign is not received correctly.

I wonder, if I should simply change the protocol to the most recent version, without backdrop support. I am not sure, but if the server sends only one protocol version, there is no need for me to understand all of them.
For a tool like OR, it is not feasible to switch permanently between versions.

Implementation is another thing, but in the moment, I know, where I have to touch the code.
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Re: OpenRadar doesn't relay v2 packets

Postby Isaak » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:20 am

In my opinion you can drop the v1 protocol support and make v2 the default, as in one of the next releases (probably 2019.3) FlightGear itself will drop it too. We've provided this backward compatibility because not everyone updates FG every year, but at the end of this year the new protocol will be well over 2 years old so everyone using MP will 've had enough time to change FG versions. Thanks for looking into it, do take the time you need!
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