Board index FlightGear Support Tools OpenRadar

Squawk codes

OpenRadar is a standalone radar screen which connects to the FlightGear multiplayer servers. It is currently being developed.

Squawk codes

Postby Secret_Hamster » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:54 pm

Okay, so I'm starting to see the possible use of squawk codes starting.

I think we should start dividing the ranges and setting some standards amongst ourselves. We can discuss in this thread. I'll try to maintain this first post as the definitive.

1200 VFR

2xxx European Codes (Not thinking we need more than that at the moment)
2000-2037 EDDF
2040-2077 EDDK
2100-2137 EDDP
2140-2177 EBBR
2200-2237 EGKK
2240-2277 EHAM
2300-2337 ELLX
2340-2377 LFML
2400-2437 LFPG
2440-2477 LFPO

Change log
12/09/2013 Change as valid numbers only 0-7 as pointed out by Omega. Hopefully 28 codes should be sufficient
12/09/2013 My Octal is letting me down getting this utterly wrong. 32 Codes each. 00-37 and 40-77
Last edited by Secret_Hamster on Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Secret_Hamster
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:32 am
Location: UK
Callsign: H-MSTR
Version: Git
OS: Linux

Re: Squawk codes

Postby jomo » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:47 pm

nice - but still a few questions:
- is that SQ shown somewhere all the time? And where ?
    Thought that may or may not be shown? And do I miss other data if IQ is shown or do I miss then other data - etc.
    How do the identifiers look now?
- is there a little procedure to send to pilots that they know what that is ?
jomo / ATCjomo + EDDFjo + EDDFjo1 + EDDFjo2
ATC at EDDF Fr,Sa,Su,We from 20:00 to 24:00 CET/MEZ., see http://www.emmerich-j.de
User avatar
jomo
 
Posts: 988
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:46 pm
Location: Mainz, Germany
Callsign: jomo EDDFjo1+2
OS: UBUNTU 18.4

Re: Squawk codes

Postby D-EKEW » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:20 pm

and for Europe the VFR code is 7000, 1200 is USA
D-EKEW
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:22 pm
Callsign: D-EKEW, ELLX-TWR
Version: git
OS: Linux

Re: Squawk codes

Postby Secret_Hamster » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:35 pm

Yes I know 7000 is the default for Europe, however.

Considering we are talking the Flightgear world rather than real world, and considering discussions else where http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=20557 I was considering the makeup of FGWorld

1200 is the default code dropped into most planes/transponders. So it would seem sense to me to default it to that. We could of course reserve both the 1xxx and the 7xxx ranges. I'm sure we're not going to have any issues with running out of numbers anytime soon.

As regards assigning squawk codes. There is no way for us to send automatic assignments to the pilot, currently it would work like real life. We assign the values (well it assigns the next free one), and then inform the pilot. As they squawk the numbers the system can correlate the two. So in effect it works similarly to real life, though not exactly.

Depending on the mode of the transponder different information will be given. So in effect you may lose some information. It might be an idea to test with someone who is capable to see what it is like.
User avatar
Secret_Hamster
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:32 am
Location: UK
Callsign: H-MSTR
Version: Git
OS: Linux

Re: Squawk codes

Postby Omega » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:31 pm

*cough* *cough*

Transponders only go up to 7, you can't squawk 8 or 9.

It'd be easier if we just went by this list (used in vatsim for Europe only): http://vateud.org/resources/atc-resources/squawk-codes
The squawk codes there are not very accurate since they just go by en-route facilities, and nothing below TMA but it should work.

If you want to be more picky, you can definitely copy the code ranges off the .pof (position files) for vrc in vatsim, these files are available in most virtual FIR/ARTCC websites.

In my opinion though, transponders in FG are unusable at their current state, because even if an aircraft is assigned a squawk code and is squawking it correctly the altitude will indicate -99. Plus the inability to hand off radar identification from one controller to the other.
The engine is the heart of an aeroplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User avatar
Omega
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Callsign: Star,EHAA_CT,MIA0176
IRC name: Omega
Version: GIT
OS: Vista,7,Ubuntu 10.04

Re: Squawk codes

Postby Johan G » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:01 pm

Omega wrote in Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:31 pm:...transponders in FG are unusable at their current state, because even if an aircraft is assigned a squawk code and is squawking it correctly the altitude will indicate -99. Plus the inability to hand off radar identification from one controller to the other.

Can the current implementation differentiate between mode 3/A (no altitude reported) and mode 3/C (altitude reported in 100 ft intervals of pressure altitude at standard pressure setting)? If so I would expect that an altitude only would be reported in mode C and no altitude would be reported in mode A.

And of course the lack of hand off does hamper the use of transponder codes, but I think that wagnerw has that in consideration. :wink:
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
Johan G
Moderator
 
Posts: 6061
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Sweden
Callsign: SE-JG
IRC name: Johan_G
Version: 2020.3.4
OS: Windows 10, 64 bit

Re: Squawk codes

Postby F-JJTH » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:34 pm

FG 2.12 is able to differentiate mode A, C and S. Altitude is transmitted only if the user has correctly set his transponder.
More information on the wiki: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Transponder

Regards,
Clément
User avatar
F-JJTH
 
Posts: 697
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Squawk codes

Postby Secret_Hamster » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:03 am

Good point omega. Brain fade on my behalf, which is even more stupid for me as I work in binary and hexadecimal on a daily basis. Will amend.

As I pointed out, squawking is in it's early stages. I'm thinking if we stay ahead of the game, we can refine what we need before it comes into widespread use. It also helps Wolfram understand what we need from OpenRadar. As you point out we have no hand off mechanism at the moment.

Has anyone got any ideas on this at the moment. I know Wolfram has a concept, not entirely sure what it is.

Is perhaps an IRC channel good enough, skype, a purpose built website, some other conferencing mechanism. Suggestions please.
User avatar
Secret_Hamster
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:32 am
Location: UK
Callsign: H-MSTR
Version: Git
OS: Linux

Re: Squawk codes

Postby ludomotico » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:20 am

Is a handoff mechanism necessary at this point? We don't have that many ATCs in adjacent control areas.

Real life (my communications are in Spanish, I'm not familiar with the English phraseology):

- Barcelona radar, CALLSIGN, from Reus to Gerona, on notification point E.Reus, squawk 5362
- CALLSIGN, on screen. Reset squawk 6213
- 6213, CALLSIGN

At first, the ATC identifies the aircraft by its position and current squawk code, and then he assigns a new code in his area... if necessary! I'm sure there is some kind of handoff mechanism between Reus and Barcelona (for legal liability issues, something not that important in a simulator), but the pilot is not aware and communications are as if there is not such mechanism. I will be perfectly happy if FlightGear mimics this behaviour.

At this moment, I find more important a working IDENT than a handoff mechanism between ATCs. I'm not familiar with OpenRadar. Is IDENT working?
User avatar
ludomotico
 
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:01 pm
Version: nightly
OS: Windows 10

Re: Squawk codes

Postby Secret_Hamster » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:17 am

I believe IDENT should work in FGFS, however, whether OR is picking this up at the moment I'm not so sure.

Can I reiterate, how I started this post off. Squawk and handoff are currently not too much of a bother. I'm trying to establish mechanisms between the OR users and a "convention", before it starts to become and issue.

I.e I'm not trying to enforce any of this, I do not have those powers, not particularly interested in forcing people either.

What I am trying to do is see if we can figure out the best way to use this in OR/FGFS to benefit us all, both pilots and ATC. We've discussed elsewhere the merits of real life vs FGFS and the agreement seemed to be that we need to stick with as close to what is in FGFS as we can.
User avatar
Secret_Hamster
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:32 am
Location: UK
Callsign: H-MSTR
Version: Git
OS: Linux

Re: Squawk codes

Postby wagnerw » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:04 pm

If you run the latest FGFS IDENT should work. I run fedora and they ship version 2.10, so it is not supported. If your contacts are able to tune in squawks, depends on their fgfs version.

OpenRadar is receiving idents and the data transmitted by FGFS. How it is displayed depends on which data block layout you choose. The data block is the data displayed beneath the contact on radar screen. I have redesigned it to be changeable. You can change it in map - data mode menu.

Traditional: What you know from the past
Simulation: Displays different symbols depending on squawk code, but shows MP data as unverified (marked with Asterix symbol *) if nothing is transmitted
Pure Simulation: Shows only what is transmitted. For the purists.

More is described in the wiki.

You can define the squawk range by doing a right click on "Assign squawk code"(AssSqw). If you click on AssSqw, a text message is prepared. As soon as it is sent, OR remembers it and displays it on the flight strips. As long as the contact has not tuned in, its transmitted value is shown in brakets.
If a contact has been released from your control, you may "Revoke the squawk code assignment" by clicking on RevSqw.

This works only if you have a contact selected...

I guess it is better explained in the wiki.

I have met only a few contacts with a transmitter and only a few of them knew about it. So be prepared, we are in an early phase of the introduction.

Wolfram
wagnerw
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:35 pm
Callsign: D-W794

Re: Squawk codes

Postby Secret_Hamster » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:08 am

Looks like myself and one of the guys who is looking to looking to ATC at LFPG are slowly building a convention. I'll report back our findings regards squawk assignment and handoff.
User avatar
Secret_Hamster
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:32 am
Location: UK
Callsign: H-MSTR
Version: Git
OS: Linux

Re: Squawk codes

Postby Secret_Hamster » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:07 am

Reading back on one of the posts, I don't think this was answered.

Regarding handoff between areas and squawks.

As far as I know an aircraft should be able to keep the same squawk across it's entire flight within one zone. I believe Europe is a single zone, in real life.

Handoff is supposed to occur by one sector controller contacting the adjecent controller (usually by phone from the documentation I've seen, but could be using some other electronic means these days). And confirming if they can accept, the current squawk, the point of hand off and altitude, whilst also confirming contact details. These are then passed onto the aircraft.

If the skies do start filling up we'll definitely need some mechanism
User avatar
Secret_Hamster
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:32 am
Location: UK
Callsign: H-MSTR
Version: Git
OS: Linux

Re: Squawk codes

Postby ludomotico » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:17 am

Secret_Hamster wrote in Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:07 am:As far as I know an aircraft should be able to keep the same squawk across it's entire flight within one zone. I believe Europe is a single zone, in real life.


I don't know about large airliners, but my squawk code on general aviation aircrafts is changed often when I enter a controlled region. This is about twice or three times an hour inside the same European country. Sometimes even inside the same FIR. Changing the squawk code is by no means uncommon. The main idea is it cannot be two aircrafts with slightly similar codes within the same area. Not only the same code, but codes that may sound similar shouldn't be allowed.

The squawk code will be changed by the destination area after you arrived and out the source area. I really don't see the necessity of a handoff mechanism to change codes between areas in a simulator. In real life you need a handoff mechanism not for the sake of the squawk code, but for liability reasons: "You were the one controlling the aircraft just crashed!". Squawk codes are managed automatically: computers assign them and a message pops up on the controllers' screen: "change the squawk of this callsign! It is too similar to other aircraft!". Actually, it is not a pop up: if I recall correctly from my visit to a control tower, the aircraft appears in red on the radar screen when the code must be changed.

I don't see the necessity of a handoff mechanism in OpenRadar, nor assigning ranges of codes to some airports. The most convenient code for his area is something up to the local ATC with some assistance from the computer, if you prefer.

Don't get me wrong: I won't complain if there is some handoff mechanism between ATCs or the squawk code is maintained through the complete flight. It is just I don't see the necessity of investing many man-hours in the implementation of this mechanism. In my opinion it won't enhance the experience or make it more realistic. Of course, if you like the idea, go ahead!
User avatar
ludomotico
 
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:01 pm
Version: nightly
OS: Windows 10

Re: Squawk codes

Postby Omega » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:34 pm

Speaking from experience, as I am now an I1 (instructor)-rated controller in VATSIM. There must be some short of a system that simulates electronic radar hand offs from one facility to the other.
Just try to imagine having an airport with TMA control split into 3 sections: Delivery, Tower, Departure/Approach.
Obviously, for departing aircraft delivery would assign a squawk code. Without some kind of squawk code allocation system based off position files or a hand off system... A new squawk code would have to be assigned again by the Tower (although not required since it's not a radar-equiped position) and then again by Departure. Of course, as the aircraft passes through the low and high sectors of each enroute facility it would have to be assigned a new squawk code EVERY time.

ludomotico wrote:I don't know about large airliners, but my squawk code on general aviation aircrafts is changed often when I enter a controlled region. This is about twice or three times an hour inside the same European country.

I guess you are referring to when you exit a CTR (Control Zone) and go uncontrolled without talking to anyone and squawking 7000 until you enter another CTR where you will be assigned a new code? Which is obviously normal since 7000 is non-discrete and cannot be used by ATC.
A different reason that you may be required to change your squawk code is when you get handed off from one ATC to the other, the new facility may require controllers to assign a new squawk code for aircraft coming from certain regions (That's why there is squawk code allocation).

In the United States, aircraft that travel through numerous enroute center sectors may often lose their assigned squawk code, which means that the assigned squawk code refreshes to "0000" and the controller loses some information on the aircraft's data tag. When that is observed, the controller may re-assign a squawk code using the phrase "Reset transponder, squawk xxxx".
The engine is the heart of an aeroplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User avatar
Omega
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Callsign: Star,EHAA_CT,MIA0176
IRC name: Omega
Version: GIT
OS: Vista,7,Ubuntu 10.04

Next

Return to OpenRadar

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest