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Click here if you want autostart AW

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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby onox » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:44 pm

Thorsten wrote in Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:52 am:Short-sighted.


Go short-sight yourself, thorsten. Curtis and torsten already gave these reasons on the mailing list, no need to copy them. But two code bases and a GUI that is more complicated than necessary is still stupid.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby MIG29pilot » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:06 pm

Click here if you want to start AW

Awwwwww...... :lol:
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby Johan G » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:43 am

Just to clarify my position I do not think it would be wise to remove basic weather and simply already due to my own experiences. Over complex (mountainous) terrain and with heavy cloud covers I epect I would have to turn off AW.

I do not know the effect on other users, but expect some of them would have more problems than me.

And then there is also the points I had no idea about that Thorsten just mentioned.

Also, in general I see more benefits than problems with the flexibility of having both.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby gsagostinho » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:51 am

Probably you guys are right about not wanting to remove the basic weather (I wasn't aware of the mentioned limitations of AW), but what I think would satisfy a lot of AW users would simply be to have AW autostart if (and only if) it has been selected before, just like ALS. Currently the toggle for AW is persistent, but it does nothing until one opens the weather dialogue and click Apply. We already discussed this in another thread and I understand there may be technicalities beyond my comprehension of the current behaviour, but I have seen so many people thinking they had AW on when actually they didn't (myself included!!).
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby Thorsten » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:13 am

Go short-sight yourself, thorsten. Curtis and torsten already gave these reasons on the mailing list, no need to copy them. But two code bases and a GUI that is more complicated than necessary is still stupid.


They did in fact not give 'these reasons', they mentioned just one of them (ability to reliably reproduce a setting) - my list is a bit more exhaustive and detailed. (In actual fact, I also answered the forum before delving into mails, so by the time I wrote my list I wasn't aware of your list post and the answers).

Thanks for calling the the weather model crowd stupid by the way - I'm sure you could do much better than us. Why don't you design the GUI, propose it and deal with all the problem reports?

Probably you guys are right about not wanting to remove the basic weather (I wasn't aware of the mentioned limitations of AW), but what I think would satisfy a lot of AW users would simply be to have AW autostart if (and only if) it has been selected before, just like ALS.


I think I said this before, but weather has a lot of use cases and the GUI needs to cater for all of them. Which makes the current GUI not optimal for any particular use case.

Personally I never use METAR because I like preparing the 'mood' for a flight, so opening the weather dialog, spending a minute with it to tweak the settings before launching it is my usual mode of operation. If you launch automatically, you sort of restrict weather choice to METAR (or some other default assumption).

Really all you need to do to start AW automatically is to add a command

settimer( func {local_weather.set_tile();}, 5.0);

(or tweak the timer a bit) somewhere to the Nasal codebase and it will launch with the current menu settings. However, I suspect that's going to confuse as many users if actually done. I don't think there's an intuitive way to control a system which is essentially a launcher bundled with a system that's always on.

I've said this elsewhere - we've had long and hard discussions leading to the current weather GUI with pages of text exchanged on the mailing list - I won't open this can of worms again, I can live with the current GUI and believe my time and energy is best spent doing other things. If you feel the GUI needs to be changed, you have to do it yourself, make a feature request and get it discussed on the mailing list, I won't do it for you. I do suggest you read up the past exchange before hand though :-)
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby gsagostinho » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:23 am

I completely understand what you are writing, Thorsten, but first of all I am not asking for you in particular to implement something for me, but more importantly nor am I asking for any GUI modifications! I am simply stating that FG has basic weather on by default, and so if an user intentionally selects the Advanced Weather toggle (and this toggle's state is saved) then AW should autostart for him. It's not the GUI, but the behaviour that is confusing! Several people do use METAR weather, and I am simply stating that it would be less confusing to autostart AW if AW is enabled, that is all.

In my particular case, everything is fine since I know now how AW work and I also will be using onox's Nasal code here, but my point is that I've seen so many people believing that they had AW on when in fact they didn't...

Really all you need to do to start AW automatically is to add a command

settimer( func {local_weather.set_tile();}, 5.0);


That may be simple for me or for someone who has any clue about Nasal, but I don't see why this isn't the default behaviour of FG. And for most people, that is just not simple at all. They would have to find this command in the forum (as they don't know Nasal nor how the local_weather function works), find out what is Nasal, create their .nas file, find out which folder to put it to autostart, etc.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby Lydiot » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:22 pm

gsagostinho wrote in Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:23 am: It's not the GUI, but the behaviour that is confusing! Several people do use METAR weather, and I am simply stating that it would be less confusing to autostart AW if AW is enabled, that is all.


No, the GUI IS confusing. We've discussed this before and even Thorsten agreed that it was before he had a "freak-out".

The problem with the GUI is that it doesn't reflect the current status of AW. So you open the dialog box and it says enabled, and if you then close the dialog box the "wrong" way you'll be flying without AW. That's a serious GUI problem. A bunch of users have been flying without knowing that they've used basic weather instead of AW, all because of this silly GUI.

And of course Thorsten doesn't think it's a problem to not fix this, because he knows what's going on. For any newbie there will be absolutely ZERO indications that this is how it functions, and they'll continue to fly with basic weather thinking it's AW, because the only way for them to figure it out is to enable it for "no reason" while paying attention to what's happening or go search the forum for it, which they won't because they think it's already enabled.

It's just not good GUI design.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby Lydiot » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:23 pm

Thorsten wrote in Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:13 am:I can live with the current GUI and believe my time and energy is best spent doing other things.


Of course. We discussed the GUI and you agreed that a tweak of it would be beneficial. But sure, to you there is no benefit, because you already know what's going on. For countless of other users who have no idea this discussion is taking place they won't even understand to search for the discussion, and will thus fly countless of hours using basic weather thinking it's AW.

But I doubt you'll read this, since I'm on your ignore list.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby gsagostinho » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:24 pm

@Lydiot I disagree with you. If AW would autostart then the current GUI would make all sense in the world. The confusion is not because of the GUI, it's because even though AW toggle is checked the AW engine hasn't been started automatically.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby Lydiot » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:21 pm

gsagostinho wrote in Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:24 pm:@Lydiot I disagree with you. If AW would autostart then the current GUI would make all sense in the world. The confusion is not because of the GUI, it's because even though AW toggle is checked the AW engine hasn't been started automatically.


The current GUI is a problem because it doesn't reflect the current status of AW.

It seems you're just proposing a different solution to it. My question however is just how that dialog box is programmed. Suppose the default is for that box to be ticked, and you start with AW as a default, does that mean that unchecking it and clicking 'ok', and then launching at a different airport will restart AW automatically? If so, will that be reflected in the dialog? I have no idea since I'm not programming that thing. But it seems to me that either way the box that is ticked or menu selected (I forget now) should reflect the current status regardless of whether or not it autostarts.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby Thorsten » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:50 pm

but I don't see why this isn't the default behaviour of FG. And for most people, that is just not simple at all.


You're very liberal in your use of 'most people'. How do you know?

Flashback a few years when my original AW GUI was replaced by the current one on the grounds that mine would not be very intuitive and the current replacement was agreed by many to be an intuitive solution. We're going around in circles it seems. Apparently you can't even agree with Lydiot what an intuitive replacement would be or where the problem is.

What you imagine isn't the default behaviour of FG because after a lengthy discussion people agreed to make it as it is - if you want to see the why in all gory detail, read the discussion, it's archived.

You can argue all you want in the forum, you may even convince me that you have a case, but it doesn't change anything. To go from something that has been agreed on by consensus to something else requires to reach a new consensus. I know just how much energy this kind of discussion takes, and I don't see sufficient evidence that the current GUI is as bad as you claim to personally push for a change. Yes - it confuses a few people, so did the old GUI, so will the next. Yes, in my view it could be better, but the view of others is rather different from mine, and theirs counts just as much. Accept that.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby gsagostinho » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:06 pm

Thorsten wrote in Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:50 pm:You're very liberal in your use of 'most people'. How do you know?

Well Thorsten, that's a completely reasonable assumption from my side. Or do you really think that most people would have any clue about Nasal?

Flashback a few years when my original AW GUI was replaced by the current one on the grounds that mine would not be very intuitive and the current replacement was agreed by many to be an intuitive solution. We're going around in circles it seems. Apparently you can't even agree with Lydiot what an intuitive replacement would be or where the problem is.

I repeat I am not talking about the GUI at all. I am simply talking about autostart, nothing else. IMO the GUI can stay the same as it is, so please stop using this argument (it's the second time I have to say the same in this very thread).

What you imagine isn't the default behaviour of FG because after a lengthy discussion people agreed to make it as it is - if you want to see the why in all gory detail, read the discussion, it's archived.

I will.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby Thorsten » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:21 pm

Whether there is autostart or not is part of the GUI as far as I am concerned, but as I said, I'm not interested in arguing or using any arguments, I wanted to give an explanation. It seems to have the usual effect, so I will remove myself from this thread.
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Re: Click here if you want autostart AW

Postby gsagostinho » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:30 pm

Thorsten wrote in Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:21 pm:I wanted to give an explanation. It seems to have the usual effect, so I will remove myself from this thread.

I understand your intention is good and I appreciate the explanations, Thorsten, so please don't get me wrong...
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