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Visualising crashes in FG

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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby mattt » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:47 pm

simbabeat wrote:I remember seeing some reports about it that it had a full load of fuel.


Surely the pilot, having apparently had the requisite skill, etc, to achieve what he did would never have attempted to crash land with a full load of fuel on board?

I don't remember the specifics - perhaps he didn't have time to dump it, or couldn't do so over the city or some such...

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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby simbabeat » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:23 pm

An A320 can't dump fuel. That's what made it so much more amazing.
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby mattt » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:47 pm

Ohhhhh.

Thanks - I just learned something. Now I can stop trying for the rest of the day (it's almost 10am here) ;-)

Cheers,
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby simbabeat » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:47 am

Stop trying to r ecreate it? There is nothing in Fligtgear stopping you from recreating it.
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby kyokoyama » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:48 pm

Anyways, to actually visualize some crashes, don't we need something that won't freeze FG whenever a plane crashes, and instead distorts the model like in Rigs of Rods?
Look for "B-BIRD" "N127KY" or "AVA0004" -that's me.

Despite having over 1700 posts here, I am not even close to being the most skilled guy here... I'm just words and bad drawing, not experience. :P
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby redneck » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:17 pm

Well, for the bad crashes yeah, I would think so. But I was also thinking of visualizing scenarios that may not have necessarily ended in a crash, but have come really close. Also, do parts rip off in Rigs of Rods, or just fold up like paper? In bad crashes, huge chunks can get ripped right off the plane.
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby MAKG » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:47 pm

I don't see how you're going to get anything approaching a realistic crash without doing some FEM calculations. Which appears to be what Rigs of Rods does.

If you think the 3D clouds slow up the animation, just wait until you try something like that.

Think about the magnitude of the problem for a moment. If you want to model deformation behavior, you'll need to model (among quite a few other things) every rivet, because popping one out changes the strength of the surface dramatically.

You can probably fake something, but it's not going to be much more realistic than the current 787 crash. Having a few key contact points to say "you crashed" is clearly feasible. If you want it to be realistic, especially if you want the NTSB to pay even the slightest attention, you won't have something useful as a flight simulator.

Simulating failure is hard, largely because crack propagation depends on the detailed microscopic structure of the material.
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby mattt » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:56 pm

simbabeat wrote:Stop trying to r ecreate it? There is nothing in Fligtgear stopping you from recreating it.


Nah, I meant stop trying to learn something new for that day...

Cheers,
Mattt.
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby redneck » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:03 am

I thought this would turn into a project to make FG only compatible with high-end machines....
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby kyokoyama » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:28 am

Well, I guess.
However, this is what I thought:

Instead of separating every polygon of each model, divide the entire model into several parts, which split in a high-velocity crash.

For example, let's say the A319 had ten parts: The front fuselage, mid fuselage, back fuselage, vertical stablizer, elevator 1, elev 2, left wing inward, left wing outward, right wing inward and right wing outward. When the 319 lands like the Hudson flight but on land gears-up, the right and left inward wing pieces, which include engines, will crunch up, dents will appear in the back fuselage and the tip of the right or left outward wing will bend over, causing it to flatten.
This will make it so that crashes are more realistic but not as complex as Rigs of Rods, and double as a great physics sim.
Model division complexity depends on the aircraft, but the most complicated -jet planes- can be divided into only 10 parts like the above.
Only downside: models may need to be recreated, unless some XML can be made to split models into those pieces.
Look for "B-BIRD" "N127KY" or "AVA0004" -that's me.

Despite having over 1700 posts here, I am not even close to being the most skilled guy here... I'm just words and bad drawing, not experience. :P
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby MAKG » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:50 pm

It will make crashes look "better" in a seriously unsophisticated sense. But they will not be realistic. Not at all.
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby singaearth » Sat May 22, 2010 3:11 pm

Hello

Not sure whether you are aware of, but you can find quite a bit of technical data on aircraft accident from the NTSB website:
http://www.ntsb.gov

Regarding the Hudson River crash, you can find the official investigation information from:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2010/Hudson-River-NY/presentations.htm
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA026/default.htm

For examples (from the "Accident Docket"), you can find:
- Flightpath simulation (and near the end of movie, starting from 4:05 min, you can watch the actual crash, as captured by nearby surveillance camera). (File ID: 420559)
- Flight Data Recorder or FDR tabular data (File ID: 417328)

For some other accidents, there are also 3D simulations, such as:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2010/Clarence-Center-NY/AnimationDescription.htm

Hope some of you will find these useful.
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby jonsberndt » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:30 pm

The creativity of this community never ceases to amaze me. Think about it. Discuss it. Give it a try. I'll bet someone can come up with a way to do this kind of thing.

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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby nickyivyca » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:04 pm

Have we mentioned sparks? If you look closely, you can see the sparks in this picture, on the tailstrike:

Image

I have the same effect on the engines, but I haven't been able to do a successful gear-up landing. I did this by modifying a gear smoke script (you can see the smoke there, as well) to have a smaller shooter, and also to use a GPL texture from GIMP. I put the gear smoke on there, as well as making sparks also creates some smoke.
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Re: Visualising crashes in FG

Postby Gijs » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:20 pm

Nice work Nick! Maybey increase the spark's size a little, they are very hard to notice right now...
I don't know about YASim, but with JSB we can measure the force on contactpoints (like the tailtip). A simple jsb-system or Nasal script could break the tail and (again I'm not sure if it is possible with YASim too) one can disable the elevator/rudder in the FDM when the force is/was too big.

This inspired me to start working on extra failures for the 744. Thanks! :D
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