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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Vodoun da Vinci » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:15 am

Loading it up and checking it out, Flug! :D

Thanks for the continued development...I do love my Bombable Scenarios!! Movies to follow I'm sure. :wink:

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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby redneck » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:30 pm

Very very nice. Just one problem. My AI MiG-21s are now extremely agile. Like The Phantom II is no match for them. Even the F-15E failed. Finally, I managed to take all 5 of them down by flying the F-16 with the FBW disabled so I could pull extreme moves like the Pugachev's Cobra and such. I never imagined my flight hand would get steady enough to handle that thing continuously without the FBW. Before, it just seemed uncontrollable, but now, I guess my skills improved. But enough bragging 8) I need to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Sure it was more exciting and all, but the way they performed is probably more fitting for the Typhoon, or at least an extremely skilled F-16 pilot flying with the FBW turned off, than the MiG-21, and I'm sure you would know that's a HUGE difference. Perhaps you can give me a hint as to what I'm doing wrong. I think my numbers in the Bombable-include file may be bad, but I don't know which ones.

As for any bugs, I've found one. But for those just getting the new version of Bombable, it is IMPERATIVE that you add the new code to the velocities definitions. That terminal velocity thing. B/c, without it, the console will throw errors, and may cause FG to crash, and if FG does not crash, all your enemies will be plummeting into the ground regardless of how high the operations floor is.

By the way. Did I mention that was EXTREMELY intense? Got my neck a good workout in less than an hour. I bet someone could sell this with the FaceTrackNoIR as a combo neck workout. Just imagine, all of a sudden, people will be balancing cars on their heads, even though they can't lift them with their arms, like this guy.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby flug » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:55 pm

redneck wrote in Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:30 pm:Very very nice. Just one problem. My AI MiG-21s are now extremely agile. Like The Phantom II is no match for them. Even the F-15E failed. Finally, I managed to take all 5 of them down by flying the F-16 with the FBW disabled so I could pull extreme moves like the Pugachev's Cobra and such. I never imagined my flight hand would get steady enough to handle that thing continuously without the FBW. Before, it just seemed uncontrollable, but now, I guess my skills improved. But enough bragging 8) I need to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Sure it was more exciting and all, but the way they performed is probably more fitting for the Typhoon, or at least an extremely skilled F-16 pilot flying with the FBW turned off, than the MiG-21, and I'm sure you would know that's a HUGE difference. Perhaps you can give me a hint as to what I'm doing wrong. I think my numbers in the Bombable-include file may be bad, but I don't know which ones.


It is probably the Max & Min degrees in the evasions & attacks sections.

But see the code example below--all of the factors listed there can effect how wild & extreme the aircraft's maneuvers are. This example is from the F-15E so they might work better for a fast jet type aircraft. (Though I haven't extensively tested the F-15E so I can't vouch for their absolute integrity.)

If it is climbing/diving too quickly cut down all the numbers involving climbing/diving (including the dive/climbPower and dodgeAlt--these indirectly affect the climb & dive rates).

But most likely it is turning too quickly and if so the culprits are the rollMin_deg and rollMax_deg (note that you need to set them in BOTH evasions & attacks sections). The AI system develops the turn rate from some combination of the current roll degrees and the current velocity. At the high end of the scale (ie, 80-90 degrees for most AC & speeds) it becomes VERY sensitive. So a rollMax_deg of 83 may give a perfectly acceptable, if hard, turn, while RollMax_deg=85 makes the AC spin on a freaking dime. My suggestion would be, reduce your rollMax_deg by maybe 2-3 degrees and see what happens. If turns are still too crazy, reduce by another 2-3 degrees, etc. Often just 1 degree change or rollMax_degturns it from impossibly fast turns to reasonably fast.

(Also, just a suggestion, but generally keep rollMax_deg & rollMin_deg quite close together, look 85 & 80, 82 &78, 80 & 74--a very close range like that. If the range is too wide you might get perfectly acceptable turns 95% of the time and then once in a while a real crazy one--makes it hard to test and makes the pilot skill level quite unpredictable.)

Also, in the Bombable menu try reducing the pilot skill level. This works basically by reducing the RollMax and the climb/dive rates proportionally for each lower degree of skill. So "Very Skilled" uses the exact settings you put in your bombableinclude file and each lower level scales those numbers back by a proportion. So if your pilots are unreasonably fast in turns & dives at "Very Skilled" but OK at "Above Average" that means your turn settings and/or dive/climb settings are set just a notch too high.

I try to make "Very Skilled" just at the edge of what's possible to follow in a similar AC with blackout & redout turned on.

FYI I figure out rollMax_deg by getting the AC and scenario going in FG, get behind and AI AC that is up to speed, then turn off Bombable in the menu, then open the property tree browser to ai/models/[my AC]/orientation. There you can see the current roll rate and set any roll rate you like. (You have to keep clicking "set" to keep it at that roll rate or else the AI system convenient keeps returning it to 0, though.) So I try, 70 degrees, 75, 80, 85, 90, etc and see what is realistic and what is too fast, then set rollMax_deg accordingly. Sometimes I set the UFO as the main AC because it is much easier to follow & observe the AI AC in the ufo.
:

Code: Select all
From evasions:

           dodgeMax_deg : 88,
           
            dodgeMin_deg : 83,
            rollRateMax_degpersec : 300,
            dodgeROverLPreference_percent : 50,
            dodgeAltMin_m : -8000,
            dodgeAltMax_m : 8000,
            dodgeVertSpeedClimb_mps : 1500,
            dodgeVertSpeedDive_mps : 1500,

From attacks:

            climbPower : 8000,
            divePower : 10000,
            rollMin_deg : 82,
            rollMax_deg : 87,
            rollRateMax_degpersec : 120,

Last edited by flug on Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby flug » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:56 pm

redneck wrote in Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:30 pm:As for any bugs, I've found one. But for those just getting the new version of Bombable, it is IMPERATIVE that you add the new code to the velocities definitions. That terminal velocity thing. B/c, without it, the console will throw errors, and may cause FG to crash, and if FG does not crash, all your enemies will be plummeting into the ground regardless of how high the operations floor is.


Thanks, it's supposed to load default values, but apparently that bit is not working. I'll see if I can fix it.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby redneck » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:49 pm

Actually, I meant to say "none", but missed the "n". Didn't realize that was a bug. Guess I got another one now though. I haven't gotten to tweaking the roll numbers yet, but I've noticed that after say 15 minutes of dogfighting, the AI will sometimes just start hugging the ground. They fly so low that you need nerves of steel to track them. They're not taxiing, but they're flying at less than 25 AGL, even though I've set the combat ops floor to 2000 AGL! Is this how they are supposed to retreat for repairs, refueling, and rearmament? I've noticed that even after they have finished refueling and all, they still hug the ground. It's annoying, and it makes no sense to me, since I don't know all the code. The ceiling is set to something like 40,000 if you are wondering about that.
EDIT: I noticed I got the max roll degree at 75 (checked both attack and evade). I suppose I will have to try stepping down the skill level, and then making adjustments to it.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby flug » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:27 pm

redneck wrote in Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:49 pm:Actually, I meant to say "none", but missed the "n". Didn't realize that was a bug. Guess I got another one now though. I haven't gotten to tweaking the roll numbers yet, but I've noticed that after say 15 minutes of dogfighting, the AI will sometimes just start hugging the ground. They fly so low that you need nerves of steel to track them. They're not taxiing, but they're flying at less than 25 AGL, even though I've set the combat ops floor to 2000 AGL! Is this how they are supposed to retreat for repairs, refueling, and rearmament? I've noticed that even after they have finished refueling and all, they still hug the ground. It's annoying, and it makes no sense to me, since I don't know all the code. The ceiling is set to something like 40,000 if you are wondering about that.

Thanks, that's not really what they are supposed to do but it might be an inadvertent side effect. I'll check it out.


EDIT: I noticed I got the max roll degree at 75 (checked both attack and evade). I suppose I will have to try stepping down the skill level, and then making adjustments to it.


The roll angle interacts with the speed somehow, and if I remember correctly, slow moving AC can get up closer to 90 degrees whereas fast moving ones have to back off more (ie, lower numbers). So it's quite possible that 75 is still too high given the attack speed of your AC. As you say, if the AC behavior is more reasonable when you lower the pilot skill, that is your clue.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby redneck » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:50 pm

Still working on getting the roll angles more reasonable. I decided to make a video, since it seemed kinda neat. It depicts me defeating 7 MiG-21s without ever landing a single shot. Keep in mind, that the operations floor is at 2000 AGL. That's two thousand, so I'm a tad confused as to how things turned out in the end. Anyway, flug, perhaps you'd like to take a look at what their behavior looks like from my end. And yes, I know I made several BFM mistakes. I suppose I've spent a little too much time playing Ace Combat: Assault Horizon. Maneuvering in that game is way too easy - throttle up means instant acceleration, even if you're applying full back pressure on the stick. At least the soundtrack is good, and, for a game, it technically gets the job done - it entertains me. So, yeah... videos.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby DutchPilotMitchell » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:48 pm

Nice vids!
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby redneck » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:19 am

Thanks. Here's another one for you to look at. Now, you can see not only how they randomly suicide into the ground, but also how some of them randomly begin to hug the ground.

If it's still processing, just check back later.

EDIT: I think I found another bug. Or, maybe it's a new feature, which I just don't completely understand too well, and therefore cannot make very good scenarios. I'm not sure if you can see this in the video or not. Check out my airspeed if you can see the HUD while I'm shooting up the enemies. You'll notice it's sometimes kinda low. It seems that, instead of maintaining 400 kts, which is what I think they are supposed to do, since that is in the scenario file, they appear to be reducing their speeds drastically in an attempt to match my own, or worse, be slower than I am, which would of course give them the advantage, especially when they can maneuver just fine well below the clean config 1G stall speed. This makes it VERY difficult for aircraft of the same class to compete with them. So, it seems my initial problem wasn't just the roll angle that was making them so agile. I will try setting the minimum speed to a higher value. Perhaps that's the problem.

EDIT2: Found yet another issue. I'm not sure if it's a bug, or if I'm doing something wrong. My bots are climbing at rates far beyond what I've set the maximum to. Adjusting climb and dive power seem to have no effect. Adjusting the minimum speed seems to have fixed the above problem, however, I cannot be sure as now I can never seem to catch them b/c they keep climbing, even above operations ceiling!

EDIT3: I think I found the issue with the bots' climb rates. The climb terminal velocities climb rates were set to about twice what I wanted the maximum climb rate to be. I cut them in half, and now, they are manageable. Now, if only I could shoot them all down before running out of fuel. Gotta get better aim, I guess.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Thorium » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:49 pm

Thanks for These scenarios
My FG Became Lively after installing these scenarios :D
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby flug » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:52 am

redneck wrote in Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:19 am: Check out my airspeed if you can see the HUD while I'm shooting up the enemies. You'll notice it's sometimes kinda low. It seems that, instead of maintaining 400 kts, which is what I think they are supposed to do, since that is in the scenario file, they appear to be reducing their speeds drastically in an attempt to match my own, or worse, be slower than I am, which would of course give them the advantage, especially when they can maneuver just fine well below the clean config 1G stall speed. This makes it VERY difficult for aircraft of the same class to compete with them.


Yes, Bombable now dynamically adjusts the AC speed. So the speed given in the scenario is just used as the initial speed and basically ignored after that.

The speed comes from these numbers in the bombableinclude.xml file:

Code: Select all
 
            minSpeed_kt : 65,   
            cruiseSpeed_kt : 175,
            attackSpeed_kt : 230,             
            maxSpeed_kt : 356,


Basically, it will try to maintain attackSpeed when attack or being attacked.

Otherwise, it will try to maintain cruiseSpeed.

However, if it starts to run low on fuel, or is damaged, it might even go below that (but never below minSpeed).

I say "it will try" because obviously climbing, diving, etc etc all affect the actual speed at any moment. In level flight, though, it will approach the cruiseSpeed when not under attack and the attackSpeed when attacking or under attack.

If you don't provide cruiseSpeed and attackSpeed in the bombableinclude.xml file Bombable tries to guess somewhat reasonable values, which may be part of the problem you're having. (These vary so much by different AC type that it is hard to come up with reasonable defaults.)
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby redneck » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:22 pm

That cruise and attack speed must be a new feature you neglected to mention. Thanks for explaining it.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby Nocheese4u » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:33 pm

Is the "bombable" compatible with the AC-130 (C-130)?
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby redneck » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:32 pm

Nocheese4u wrote in Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:33 pm:Is the "bombable" compatible with the AC-130 (C-130)?

I imagine you could add bombable to it. Not sure how you'll manage to fly the plane and aim the guns at the same time.

Btw, I've noticed that the latest bombable doesn't work on FG v20111219. At least for me, it doesn't. If someone could confirm this, or if a fix could be made, that would be great.

Thanks.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraf

Postby iguana72 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:55 am

Hi

So, this package really caught my eye with the idea of dogfights and being able to destroy things. Anyway, I tried installing it on Flightgear 2.4.0, but I can't seem to figure it out. For some reason, it's not adding the aircraft to my launcher. It is supposed to add a few new airplanes, correct? Like the A-10 more specifically. Any ideas to why it isn't working?

I also can't seem to find the scenarios either.

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