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AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

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Bombable ver 3.0k now available--major improvements & upgrad

Postby flug » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:36 am

Version 3.0k of Bombable has been released. Download here:

http://brenthugh.com/flightgear/bombable3k.zip

This version incorporates a whole lot of improvements and new features. Here is a partial list from the What's New file:

A5MW ZERO FOR DOGFIGHTING: A6M2 ready for MP dogfighting included in release.

A6M2 ZERO WITH WORKING GUN AND CANNON: Added historically accurate guns and cannons (fire with e and E) to A6M2 Zero.

ZEROS OVER MARIN COUNTY SCENARIO: Marin County Zero Invasion scenario added.

DOGFIGHTING: Greatly improved dogfighting/multiplayer communication of damages

BURN/SMOKE ON CRASH: Your aircraft now catch fire, burn, and instantly go to 100% damage when you crash. This is broadcast via MP so others will see you burn when you crash.

EXCESSIVE G-FORCE DAMAGES YOUR AIRCRAFT: Excessive g-force now adds damage to your airframe and can even make you crash. To avoid damaging your aircraft due to excessive g-force, always fly with blackout/redout turned on and avoid pulling g-forces much beyond those that make you blackout or redout.

BOMBABLE A62M ZERO: Included Bombable version of the AI A6M2 Zero from Hellcat's Carrier Bombable project, but also made a few tweaks/improvements to he AI A6M2 for improved realism. See http://www.4shared.com/file/235605076/6 ... bable.html

BUGFIXES: Many other miscellaneous bug fixes and improvements.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby Thorsten » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:03 am

So again I'm not saying the damage formulas can't be tweaked some--they can--and if you have specific suggestions I'm all ears, but to really solve the problem you want to solve is going to take much, much more specific info out of FG that it just can't give right now, plus much more specific info about damage vulnerabilities of specific aircraft and systems and the damage inflicted by various specific weapons.


I think you're exaggerating the magnitude of the problem. I suggest merely that you rethink your vulnerability model, not that you do a detailed simulation of where and how an aircraft is hit.

I've read through the article you mentioned. What strikes me is that he uses the momentum of the shell as proxy for kinetic damage, not the energy. The argument is, I believe, in the context of WW-II (and WW-I) where it is used, sound. A round will not be stopped by hitting wood or canvas, so more kinetic energy will not mean more energy on the target.

But the Fokker Triplane masses (empty) 0.4 tons. In WW-II, the Spitfire already has 2.3 tons empty weight, the A-10 has a whopping 11 tons. I believe a round will not simply punch through an A-10 - there is a lot more metal to stop it. As soon as that happens, kinetic energy rather than momentum is the correct variable, and the aircraft mass could be used as a proxy for the stopping power to decide which value to use.

Then, there is the density of critical components. While I think in the Fokker it's something like 10% (basically you have to hit the pilot, the engine or the tank to really do something bad), in the A-10 it's more like 50% (the engine is much larger, the hydraulic system can't use a pressure loss either, tanks are much larger... I can tell a lot of places in the Fokker where punching a hole is not really bad, but with the A-10 it's a different issue). So I suggest to use a rough estimate of the density of critical components into the vulnerability as well.

Essentially, that requires you to tweak a few numbers - not to write a complex code.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby jack » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:00 pm

Good job on the bombable! :D
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby flug » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:40 pm

flug wrote:
Thorsten wrote:A second thing that I noticed is that 'dead' planes take quite some time to go down.


This is an inherent problem of this approach. To fix it you would have to get in and change FG's internals somehow.


On further consideration, see this post:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8096&p=82740#p82740

Maybe an approach that's worth a try.

As always, thanks for your ideas & input, and willingness to reply & respond. It's setting off some ideas that, unfortunately, I won't have any time to implement now but maybe sometime in the future . . .
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby flug » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:49 pm

Thorsten wrote:
So again I'm not saying the damage formulas can't be tweaked some--they can--and if you have specific suggestions I'm all ears, but to really solve the problem you want to solve is going to take much, much more specific info out of FG that it just can't give right now, plus much more specific info about damage vulnerabilities of specific aircraft and systems and the damage inflicted by various specific weapons.


I think you're exaggerating the magnitude of the problem. I suggest merely that you rethink your vulnerability model, not that you do a detailed simulation of where and how an aircraft is hit.


Aha, thanks for the further discussion. I agree this would be pretty easy to implement and in fact the current damage code sort of almost does just that. But you could make some of those percentages and values settable per aircraft in the vulnerabilities section and use those individualized values rather than the current generic ones.

Some of the problem, too, is Bombable has the ability to set some of these kind of damage parameters for each aircraft but--what are the appropriate numbers for each aircraft? The ones in the current version are a bit of a guess, of course.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby Thorsten » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:56 pm

I just tested the 3.0k and had a look at the new Zeros.

Your damage on ground collision works fine - the ground avoidance algorithm unfortunately does not - I saw 4 Zeros impacting on a hill and self-destructing before I could even get into the air. I was unable to hit anything with the Zero myself, but maybe that's just me, I'll try to hit a ferry to see if the gun as such works or my aim is just off. For clarification - should I use --aircraft=A6M2 or some special customized version? With the MiG-15 (my new favourite...), I was able to clear the few planes that did not self-destruct just fine.

So, some mixed feelings with regard to the new version so far...

I'd also have a suggestion for packaging things - please put the documentation into a subfolder Docs/ - it shouldn't really be in the Flightgear root folder.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby jack » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:57 pm

Also, damaged airframe fires need to be toned down. I was practicing some maneuvers in a Cessna today, and a split-s caused my biplane to burst into flames. :shock: What research do you have behind this reaction to G-Force? I can no longer indulge in the flight experience I enjoy without my aircraft bursting into flames, all engine power being lost, stalling instantly, and crashing. :P Everything else is great though.

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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby jack » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:26 am

Ok, how do I disable the Airframe damage function!? I attempted to fight a MiG-21 today, and when I corkscrewed to lose airspeed, I went from 0 to 81% Damage and caught on fire... 3 different times. What command lines do I delete? How do I get rid of this function?
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby flug » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:16 pm

jackmermod wrote:Ok, how do I disable the Airframe damage function!? I attempted to fight a MiG-21 today, and when I corkscrewed to lose airspeed, I went from 0 to 81% Damage and caught on fire... 3 different times. What command lines do I delete? How do I get rid of this function?


Aha, that's not good.

About line 2898, remark out or just delete these lines:

mp_add_damage( accelDamageMultiplierPercentPerSecond * (a-accelDamageThreshold)/100,
0,0,0, "G-force damage to airframe!" );

In the long term this needs to have a per-aircraft setting and in the short term a way to turn it off (and maybe have it off by default). Look for this in ver 3.0l, coming soon.

FWIW the impetus for creating this was the A6M2 where you can just yank on the stick and do crazy high-g maneuvers that would clearly rip the wings off in real life. Obviously other aircraft may have much higher tolerances.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby flug » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:27 am

Thorsten wrote:I just tested the 3.0k and had a look at the new Zeros.

Your damage on ground collision works fine - the ground avoidance algorithm unfortunately does not - I saw 4 Zeros impacting on a hill and self-destructing before I could even get into the air.

Fixed in latest version, thanks for pointing it out.

I was unable to hit anything with the Zero myself, but maybe that's just me, I'll try to hit a ferry to see if the gun as such works or my aim is just off. For clarification - should I use --aircraft=A6M2 or some special customized version?


Just aircraft=A6M2 is fine. Any aircraft that shoots weapons will work OK with the AI scenarios. The 4 aircraft included in the package are the only ones that work for MP dogfighting, though.

With the MiG-15 (my new favourite...), I was able to clear the few planes that did not self-destruct just fine.

So, some mixed feelings with regard to the new version so far...

I'd also have a suggestion for packaging things - please put the documentation into a subfolder Docs/ - it shouldn't really be in the Flightgear root folder.


OK.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby flug » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:29 am

OK, another new version is online now, fixing many/most of the problems you all have been kind enough to point out.

http://brenthugh.com/flightgear/bombable3l.zip

What's new:

3.0L
------------------------
OVERSPEED DETECTION/DAMAGE

G-FORCE AND OVERSPEED DETECTION OPTIONAL - Switches in the Bombable menu to turn it off; turned off by default except for planes included in Bombable package.

VULNERABILITIES FRAMEWORK FOR PRIMARY AIRCRAFT - allows max acceleration, max speed parameters to be set individually per aircraft (main aircraft) and then damage from overspeed/overacceleration is accrued when those limits are exceeded.

BLACKOUT/REDOUT TUNABLE PER AIRCRAFT - allows blackout & redout values to be set per aircraft--for instance to reflect that WWI aircraft had no pressure suits or special high-G training. This will help level the playing field and create uniformity in MP dogfighting with similar aircraft.

G-FORCE AND OVERSPEED LIMITS AND DAMAGE AMOUNTS TUNED - for the four aircraft included in the Bombable package (A6M2 Zero, Sopwith Camel, SPAD VII, Fokker DR1) the g-force damage & overspeed damage parameters have been individually tuned and are fairly realistic.

FIRES ONLY FOR APPROPRIATE DAMAGE - Overspeed & overacceleration (g-force) damage doesn't start a fire, though it will still rack up 100% damage and shut you down.

BUGFIXES - a large number of bugfixes
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby Thorsten » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:17 pm

G-force warning: 19g
G-force warning: 33g
G-force warning: 67g
G-force warning: 19g
G-force warning: 33g
G-force warning: 67g
G-force warning: 19g
G-force warning: 33g
G-force warning: 67g
G-force warning: 19g
G-force warning: 33g
G-force warning: 67g
G-force warning: 19g
G-force warning: 33g
G-force warning: 67g
G-force warning: 19g
G-force warning: 33g
G-force warning: 67g


Seems I died a few times over when touching down... Where do you get these numbers? It looks like it's sensitive to speed changes happening in a single frame from which a terrific acceleration is computed.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby Thorsten » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm

Okay, on further testing:

I managed to produce with the Zero by a tight looping in the air

Bombable: 132.2g force damaged airframe! Damage added 7% - Total damage 45%


132 g is completely impossible - so there's something decidedly odd in the determination of the acceleration. Furthermore, I get messages

Bombable MADU: MP sending: callsign 0.07507396326434794 0.4550584490414567 0 0 callsignDAAAAAA??MMAAAAAD??v?AA


No idea why it would want to do that - I don't do MP flying.

I have also emptied the magazines of the Zero onto a Ferry - without scoring a single hit (visually I saw several impacts... basically the line of bullets intersected with the Ferry, so there must be a hit). There's something odd with the guns, I might not be able to hit another Zero, but I am able to hit a ferry.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby jack » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:52 pm

Everything works great for me. :D The only other thing I want is the ability to see your self on fire when you get shot by someone else.
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Re: AI & MP Dogfighting now working! Bombable ships, aircraft...

Postby flug » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:20 am

Thorsten wrote:
Bombable: 132.2g force damaged airframe! Damage added 7% - Total damage 45%

Bombable MADU: MP sending: callsign 0.07507396326434794 0.4550584490414567 0 0 callsignDAAAAAA??MMAAAAAD??v?AA

I have also emptied the magazines of the Zero onto a Ferry - without scoring a single hit (visually I saw several impacts... basically the line of bullets intersected with the Ferry, so there must be a hit). There's something odd with the guns, I might not be able to hit another Zero, but I am able to hit a ferry.


Thanks--these were all very helpful bits of feedback.

On the Ferry thing, that sent me down quite a lot of rabbit holes. However a bunch of them are plugged now in the new version.

However--you still can't get up to much damage on the ferries with a mere machine gun. I took a bunch of runs at it with a Zero (unlimited ammo) and managed to get it up to a whopping 2%.

It's a very well armored ferry, I guess. The original idea was to make it something that would be killed by bombs and that's where the vulnerability level is set . . .
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