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Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby F-PTCZ » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:53 am

Thanks for considering my request !! :-)
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby scarymovie » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:56 am

Hi RedGriffin,

Going back to what we've discussed earlier (point 1), what is the transmission range (distance and altitude) between the aircraft and airport?

I flew to Lisboa one time and at about 12++ nm out, < 4500 ft, I was still attempting to reach out to the airport for airspace CTR transition. There wasn't enough time to react and prepare landing configuration when communication was finally established with the airport.

On another occasion at a different airport, I was instructed to join the right traffic. However instead of joining the traffic, I was guided "out of the CTR airspace" by the ATC.

So I guess this is something to do with the range?

Thank you.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:01 am

scarymovie wrote in Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:56 am:Hi RedGriffin,

Going back to what we've discussed earlier (point 1), what is the transmission range (distance and altitude) between the aircraft and airport?

I flew to Lisboa one time and at about 12++ nm out, < 4500 ft, I was still attempting to reach out to the airport for airspace CTR transition. There wasn't enough time to react and prepare landing configuration when communication was finally established with the airport.
Hi there!

On another occasion at a different airport, I was instructed to join the right traffic. However instead of joining the traffic, I was guided "out of the CTR airspace" by the ATC.

So I guess this is something to do with the range?

Thank you.

Hi there!

Red Griffin ATC determines CTR range according to the "supposed" size of the airport controlling it. Airport size is arbitrarily determined by the number of radio stations operating in the airport The greater the number of radio stations, the bigger the supposed airport size and according to this schema:

    • 1 radio: small
    • 2-4 radios: medium
    • 5 or more radios: big

As of version 2.1.0 (which is currently under development and to be released soon) CTR ranges are defined according to this schema:

    • Small airport: 20 nm (was 15 nm in version 2.0.0)
    • Medium airport: 30 nm
    • Big airport: 50 nm

Some weeks ago, I too have noticed the same behavior you noticed, that is there are cases in which ATC could guide you off the CTR airspace. This is determined by another parameter, that is the approach distance to runway defined in Red Griffin ATC and which varies according to aircraft type: (please note these are the new settings in use for version 2.1.0)

    • Small single engine: 8 nm (was 10 nm in version 2.0.0)
    • Small multi engine: 8 nm (was 10 nm in version 2.0.0)
    • Executive turboprop/jet: 12 nm
    • Business jet: 15 nm
    • Airline jet: 15 nm
    • Large/military jet: 15 nm
    • Special military: 15 nm

Red Griffin ATC guided you off the CTR airspace in case you were trying to land in an airport having a CTR range shorter than your aircraft approach distance or about the same, such as trying to land in a small airport, having a 15 nm CTR range, with an Airliner or business jet. That's why I increased the CTR range values therefore changing this behavior and giving you at least 5 nm tolerance. This is fixed in version 2.1.0.

Thank you for sharing your feedback and reports!

Kindest regards.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby scarymovie » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:07 pm

Hi Red Griffin,

Great to know that all these will be fixed in this upcoming version. May I know why the range for small single/multi engine(s) aircraft will be decreased from 10 nm to 8 nm?

Looking forward to the next version. :D

Thank you.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:18 pm

scarymovie wrote in Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:07 pm:Hi Red Griffin,

Great to know that all these will be fixed in this upcoming version. May I know why the range for small single/multi engine(s) aircraft will be decreased from 10 nm to 8 nm?

Looking forward to the next version. :D

Thank you.

Hello there!

I am using 8 nm now as an experimental value and it seems to be enough for a "slow" aircraft. It is also true airport charts always suggest 10 nm approach and I think I may switch back to 10 nm because on some particular weather conditions 8 nm seem to be a short distance. Like I said, 2.1.0 is under development and I am trying to "fine tune" some settings values.
I am also considering about the other aircraft types although I am quite happy with them. 12 nm for a business/execute jet/prop and 15 nm for an airliner seem to be right. Any suggestion or idea?

Kind regards.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby WoodSTokk » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:49 pm

Hi RedGriffin,

What are the criteria to decide the aircraft type?
I ask, because i develope the Citation II and scarymovie had some problems with the combination RedGriffinATC & Citation II.

I presume your Addon read the tags in the set.xml file.
The Citation has this tags:
Code: Select all
    <tags>
      <tag>1970s</tag>
      <tag>1980s</tag>
      <tag>1990s</tag>
      <tag>bizjet</tag>
      <tag>cessna</tag>
      <tag>ifr</tag>
      <tag>jet</tag>
      <tag>rembrandt</tag>
      <tag>retractable-gear</tag>
      <tag>tricycle</tag>
      <tag>twin-engine</tag>
      <tag>2-engine</tag>
    </tags>

If RedGriffinATC need another information, please let us know. Thx.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:27 am

WoodSTokk wrote in Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:49 pm:Hi RedGriffin,

What are the criteria to decide the aircraft type?

Hello there!

Thank you for your message and for your interest in Red Griffin ATC.

As for aircraft type used in my addon, this is set by the user in the settings dialog. Therefore, as of version 2.0.0, it is up to the user to choose the aircraft type.
Setting the proper aircraft type is crucial to Red Griffin ATC internal logic because it determines many parameters, in particular those used for approach and landing operations.

WoodSTokk wrote in Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:49 pm:I ask, because i develope the Citation II and scarymovie had some problems with the combination RedGriffinATC & Citation II.

I presume your Addon read the tags in the set.xml file.

The Citation has this tags:

When I introduced the aircraft type in Red Griffin ATC, I considered using /sim/tags properties in order to automatically determine aircraft type and by making arbitrarily assumptions, such as engine type, number of engines and category. I did not use this approach because I see not all the aircraft available in FlightGear define tags in their specifications, so I opted for the user to explicitly set this parameter.
I however changed my mind for version 2.1.0 - which is under development - which will have a new "auto" setting option in the aircraft type which will try its best to determine aircraft type according to the information found in /sim/tags.
In case Red Griffin ATC cannot automatically detect aircraft type, it will choose "small single engine" aircraft as default. Aircraft type is always displayed in the titlebar of Red Griffin ATC main dialog as well as in the popup information text.

WoodSTokk wrote in Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:49 pm:If RedGriffinATC need another information, please let us know. Thx.

Thank you for your help.

In case you have ideas and suggestions about my addon, they are certainly welcome.

Thank you.

Kind regards.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby wkitty42 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:11 pm

RedGriffin wrote in Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:27 am:In case Red Griffin ATC cannot automatically detect aircraft type, it will choose "small single engine" aircraft as default.

if i may offer a suggestion... if RGATC cannot automatically determine the craft type, it should ask the user like it was doing... you have the "ask the user" part working... you only need to do that if the automatic determination fails...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:16 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:11 pm:if i may offer a suggestion... if RGATC cannot automatically determine the craft type, it should ask the user like it was doing... you have the "ask the user" part working... you only need to do that if the automatic determination fails...

Hi there and thanks for your suggestion.

What you suggest is exactly what happens in version 2.1.0 and already implemented. Red Griffin ATC will use "small single engine" aircraft settings in case it cannot automatically determine aircraft type, pops up a window in which informs the user it could not detect aircraft type (and inviting the user to set it in settings dialog) and will use "small single engine" aircraft parameters for its own internal logic. User is warned about this specific condition and, moreover, aircraft type is always displayed in the main dialog title bar so the user always has this information visible.

Thank you and keep on sharing your ideas and suggestions about Red Griffin ATC!

Kind regards.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:41 pm

I am very glad to show a preview video of the upcoming Red Griffin ATC 2.1.0.

This new version, besides fixing some bugs and improving some aspects of the addon, introduces:

    • Squawking: the ATC requires the pilot to properly operate the transponder, including setting and changing the squawk code and IDENT
    • Automatic aircraft type recognition
    • Runway approach slope angle
    • New approach and slope monitor

Red Griffin ATC 2.1.0 will be released very soon. For the moment, enjoy the preview video.

As usual, comments and feedback are always very welcome!

Happy new year to all!

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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby wkitty42 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:06 pm

nice vid!
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Hooray » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:42 pm

right, really hard to believe that this still is FlightGear - and it speaks volume that it's no longer the graphics that are affecting immersion, but rather our robotic TTS engine :lol:
We really need better voices and an overall better integration, FLITE can sound so much better than it does in FlightGear
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:52 am

Hooray wrote in Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:42 pm:We really need better voices and an overall better integration, FLITE can sound so much better than it does in FlightGear

Agree. FLite can do way better than what we have in FlightGear. And those robotic voices give me pain whenever I use my addon! :D
Sooner or later I will dig into FLite integration in FlightGear and change that.
Months ago I tried to replace the default voice files with other voices but it did not work. It was just a file replacement and nothing more and I did not spend much time on that.
Having worked for several years both in digital sound and speech synthesis, the voice support in FlightGear is really disappointing to say the least. Not only we should have different and more realistic default voices, but also the possibility to choose or add new ones.
I read somewhere it is possible to call festival from within FlightGear but I do not know whether this is still possible or dropped in favor of flite integration.

Speech synthesis should really change in FlightGear and that would certainly add extra realism to that.

Kind regards.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Hooray » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:12 pm

I think festival should still work, it was mainly property driven after all - i.e. you had to run festival separately. The whole scheme was implemented by one of the core devs at the time (Melchior), so it was pretty well integrated. I think FLITE came afterwards, and was integrated by Torsten (another core dev), but festival integration was always considered superior as far as I can tell

I am not sure if Torsten is currently around or who else would be willing to discuss, review/commit related patches - so that would be something better discussed on the devel list.
However, it might help to draft some kind of action plan (forum topic or wiki page) to gather some feedback and then flesh out some ideas. Also, filing a proper feature request would make sense to that this can be updated over time.

It seems, the last TTS talks took place several years ago:

https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/ma ... gear-devel
https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/ma ... gear-devel
https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/ma ... gear-devel

Speaking in general, the FLITE project's README file is exceptionally good and covers 90% of our questions "as is": https://github.com/festvox/flite

Thus, I think the first stop would be customizing FLITE in standalone mode, and once we are satisfied with that, it would make sense to update FLITE in FlightGear and get our own integration reviewed and committed.
There also is quite a bit of customization potential given our context (aviation, phraseologies) - then again, FLITE is all C - so there is no base package customization possible unless people use festival instead.
However, there is a separate repository for voices.
Again, it's all extensively covered in the excellent README file
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:55 pm

Hooray wrote in Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:12 pm:I think festival should still work, it was mainly property driven after all - i.e. you had to run festival separately. The whole scheme was implemented by one of the core devs at the time (Melchior), so it was pretty well integrated. I think FLITE came afterwards, and was integrated by Torsten (another core dev), but festival integration was always considered superior as far as I can tell
...

As far as I can tell and remember, if I am not wrong FlightGear uses Flite+hts, which uses a different voice file type.
I see the festival / flite implementation is quite old now and it would certainly need a sort or update or revamp. I was thinking about adding festival support by directly using festival API, which would make the implementation both safer and more efficient without the need of calling an external program (i.e. festival itself).
FLite certainly is a very good solution and would satisfy all the current needs (or at least those I can think of) and, moreover, it uses standard festival voices.

As soon as I have time, I want to see how festival integration has been implemented in FlightGear as well as how it can be used. Maybe I should search this subject in the wiki first or by directly browsing FlightGear's source code.

Kindest regards,
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