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Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Michat » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:44 am

Thank you red griffin, that answer resolves all our questions.

RobAndrew, sounds pretty cool use for the rg addon although.

RG on :arrow: TACAN


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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Johan G » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:06 am

RobAndrew wrote in Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:12 pm:Do you think this is possible for AAR (In flight refueling) as well? I am halfway through working on a decent AI Tanker which is programable and predictable. The only thing it is missing is a dialog for pre-contact, hook up and departure.

Surprisingly, the NATO aerial refueling handbook is public. I think the relevant information for this is in ATP-56(A), Part 1, Annex 7A - Radio procedures.

For a link to it see the FlightGear wiki article Aerial refueling improvement ideas and resources#NATO handbook (permalink).
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:28 am

RobAndrew wrote in Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:12 pm:Hey, So talking of Dialog...

The only thing it is missing is a dialog for pre-contact, hook up and departure. I'm guessing it is as it goes along the same lines as ATC. Although I wouldn't have thought it is half as complex!

At the end, creating dialogs in nasal is quite versatile e offers mechanisms, tools and widgets sufficiently good for most of the purposes. I think you should have no problems in building a dialog for your software. (Despite the fact building a GUI is always the most annoying and boring task in software development! :-D )
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 am

Michat wrote in Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:44 am:Thank you red griffin, that answer resolves all our questions.

Great! I am glad we cleared this thing up! :-)
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RobAndrew » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am

Hey, So I just tested this out, I found a few issues that may need correcting...

Firstly, when taxiing, it seems like the pilot thinks that i'm going through airspace and so ends up asking for permission through CTR airspace, over and over and over...I don't know if this is just me or something i'm doing wrong. Just thought i'd mention it.

Also, Maybe it's in the works I don't know, but it doesn't take weather and cloud base in to account just yet. Being asked to maintain 5000 ft with a 3500ft cloud base isn't very helpful! Maybe this could be implemented in future somehow?

Anyway I hope this is useful. Seems very promising other than this!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:42 pm

PLEASE ADMIN OR MAINTAINER, CAN YOU PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE? I DO NOT KNOW WHY MY REPLY HAS BEEN POSTED TWICE! THANK YOU.
RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am:Hey, So I just tested this out, I found a few issues that may need correcting...

Hi there!
Thank you for your feedback and for testing Red Griffin ATC.

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am:Firstly, when taxiing, it seems like the pilot thinks that i'm going through airspace and so ends up asking for permission through CTR airspace, over and over and over...I don't know if this is just me or something i'm doing wrong. Just thought i'd mention it.

CTR gets approved in two specific cases:
    1) the pilot requests transition by asking "Request CTR" to ATC and COM radio is properly tuned in "CTR radio" (tower, approach, departure, depending on airport's radios)
    2) aircraft has received the "cleared for take-off" permission and aircraft is "automatically" granted permission
The addon will invite you to tune the proper "CTR radio" in case you are tuned to a radio not allowed to grant CTR permission.
I understand the "real procedure" may be different than the above (I do not have a pilot license), so what is the correct procedure on this regard?

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am:Also, Maybe it's in the works I don't know, but it doesn't take weather and cloud base in to account just yet. Being asked to maintain 5000 ft with a 3500ft cloud base isn't very helpful! Maybe this could be implemented in future somehow?

This is interesting. Do you mean ATC should not ask the aircraft to fly over the cloud base? If this is the case, I guess this can be fixed in no time! :-)
If I get you right, in case cloud base is 3500ft, you should never reach an altitude higher than that? I guess this applies to VFR, however - provided I got this right - in your heading is from 0 to 179, the minimum altitude is 3500ft, whereas in case the heading is from 180 to 359, minimum altitude should be 4500ft.
What the ATC is supposed to advise in case my heading is 200 and base cloud is 3550ft?
Once again, I do not have a pilot license so I am trying to understand what the correct procedure is in order to properly implement it in my addon.

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am:Anyway I hope this is useful. Seems very promising other than this!
[/quote]
Thank you for taking the time to test Red Griffin ATC and I am very glad you consider my addon very promising. That's why I want to improve it the best I can. I want it to be the most realistic I can.

Thank you for your suggestions and feedback.
Last edited by RedGriffin on Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:46 pm

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am:Hey, So I just tested this out, I found a few issues that may need correcting...

Hi there!
Thank you for your feedback and for testing Red Griffin ATC.

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am:Firstly, when taxiing, it seems like the pilot thinks that i'm going through airspace and so ends up asking for permission through CTR airspace, over and over and over...I don't know if this is just me or something i'm doing wrong. Just thought i'd mention it.

CTR gets approved in two specific cases:
    1) the pilot requests transition by asking "Request CTR" to ATC and COM radio is properly tuned to a "CTR radio" (tower, approach, departure, depending on airport's radios)
    2) aircraft has received the "cleared for take-off" permission and aircraft is "automatically" granted permission
The addon will invite you to tune the proper "CTR radio" in case you are tuned to a radio not allowed to grant CTR permission.
I understand the "real procedure" may be different than the above (I do not have a pilot license), so what is the correct procedure on this regard?

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am:Also, Maybe it's in the works I don't know, but it doesn't take weather and cloud base in to account just yet. Being asked to maintain 5000 ft with a 3500ft cloud base isn't very helpful! Maybe this could be implemented in future somehow?

This is interesting. Do you mean ATC should not ask the aircraft to fly over the cloud base? If this is the case, I guess this can be fixed in no time! :-)
If I get you right, in case cloud base is 3500ft, you should never reach an altitude higher than that? I guess this applies to VFR, however - provided I got this right - in case your heading is from 0 to 179, VFR rules require the minimum altitude to be 3500ft, whereas in case the heading is from 180 to 359, minimum altitude should be 4500ft.
What the ATC is supposed to advise in case my heading is 200 and base cloud is 3500ft? (4500ft is higher than that. Am I supposed to fly at 2500ft instead?)
Once again, I do not have a pilot license so I am trying to understand what the correct procedure is in order to properly implement it in my addon.

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:11 am:Anyway I hope this is useful. Seems very promising other than this!

Thank you for taking the time to test Red Griffin ATC and I am very glad you consider my addon very promising. That's why I want to improve it the best I can. I want it to be the most realistic possible.

Thank you for your suggestions and feedback.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Hooray » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:49 pm

if the first issue is real, it might suffice to check power/groundspeed/altitude or the "wow" (weight on wheel) properties ?
Another heuristic might be computing a virtual taxiway corridor to check if the aircraft is inside the corridor of a known taxiway.

For the weather stuff, it would make sense to tell us which weather system you're using - "advanced weather" is fully scripted using Nasal.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:59 pm

Hooray wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:49 pm:if the first issue is real, it might suffice to check power/groundspeed/altitude or the "wow" (weight on wheel) properties ?

which properties are you specifically talking about? And how am I supposed to use them?

Hooray wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:49 pm:Another heuristic might be computing a virtual taxiway corridor to check if the aircraft is inside the corridor of a known taxiway.

This too is interesting. As far as I can tell, the airport ghost type does not have any taxiway information. The taxiways property of airport, as far as I can tell, contains no data.

Hooray wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:49 pm:For the weather stuff, it would make sense to tell us which weather system you're using - "advanced weather" is fully scripted using Nasal.

As for weather, I use the "/environment/metar" tree properties.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Hooray » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:39 pm

See the property browser (wiki), you will find a /position branch there - and for FDM-specific stuff there is /fdm, too

For taxiway processing, see:

http://wiki.flightgear.org/Ground_Services
Image

A "corridor" for a given taxiway/runway could be computed by using two 3D points (lat/lon, elevation) to compute a 3D "pipe" with a configurable diameter, the center line being the center of the circle/pipe. So that heuristics could tell whether a certain coordinate is inside/outside the corresponding 3D volume.

But that's just an idea ...The residing math genius on the forum is certainly Thorsten, so he probably won't even have to look up any formulas.

Such heuristics could probably even be turned into a generic property rule where the set of points/coordinates, diameter and range are made configurable, so that chains of "pipes" can be connected to resemble an actual route segment - which might even come in handy for other ATC purposes (think computing separation), or to help with the creation of tutorials that need to monitor the progress of a flight.

Again, Thorsten would probably be the best person to come up with the maths for something like that - he must be doing something along those lines to deal with level of detail for his weather engine which is also tile based, so he may have a solution already - because he's moving objects in 3D space already (wind fields).
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RobAndrew » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:47 pm

Replying to your reply...
I think what i'll do is try a few different airports with a few different aircraft. Thinking back, this was a very specific case. It may be the airport triggering it or the Aircraft (The Asking of CTR Clearance whilst taxiing)
When it comes to the weather, I think just in a broader sense that ATC should take weather in to account. I'm sure it can alter where ATC'ers put aircraft in the sky. It might even alter which take off and landing it gives. I believe it does take wind direction and strength in to account though?
I to am not a Pilot. I to am still trying to learn the correct language and dialect between ATC and pilot. Im hoping this will help!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby SeniorM-TZ » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:36 am

How to get radios communication with the RGATC on 777 series aircraft?, i found it a bit difficult
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:04 am

Hooray wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:39 pm:See the property browser (wiki), you will find a /position branch there - and for FDM-specific stuff there is /fdm, too

I guess I am lost here. Although the property browser has been my very best friend since the beginning of the development of Red Griffin ATC, I don't understand how power/groundspeed/altitude or the "wow" (weight on wheel) could help me in determining whether the aircraft is in a taxiway?
I understand my knowledge about FlightGear (and aviation, in general) is not enough to understand what you mean.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:15 am

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:47 pm:I think what i'll do is try a few different airports with a few different aircraft. Thinking back, this was a very specific case. It may be the airport triggering it or the Aircraft (The Asking of CTR Clearance whilst taxiing)

I have never had such an issue during my tests, however requesting a CTR can be done any time and it does not depend on whether you are in an airport or flying.
By reading what you write, it makes me think you move to a new airport by using the "go to airport" function inside FlightGear without restarting it? If this is the case, it makes me think it is an issue concerning the ATC which is still using the previous settings/states while they should be reset. Maybe you can provide more details. Thank you.

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:47 pm:When it comes to the weather, I think just in a broader sense that ATC should take weather in to account. I'm sure it can alter where ATC'ers put aircraft in the sky. It might even alter which take off and landing it gives. I believe it does take wind direction and strength in to account though?

The ATC considers wind to determine the airport's runway in use. Clouds, rain and snow are not taken into consideration at all. Now I wonder whether they should be considered and, if so, how?
Altitude is always determined according to the current aircraft altitude and heading by using VFR rules. (And I know - as far as I know - VFR should not be used in case of IFR)

RobAndrew wrote in Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:47 pm:I to am not a Pilot. I to am still trying to learn the correct language and dialect between ATC and pilot. Im hoping this will help!

Every feedback is a great help in making me fix bugs and correct wrong procedures. So, thank you for your time and for your help!

I hope you will continue enjoying Red Griffin ATC!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:25 am

SeniorM-TZ wrote in Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:36 am:How to get radios communication with the RGATC on 777 series aircraft?, i found it a bit difficult

Hello there!
I tested the 777 right now with Red Griffin ATC and it properly reads and sets COM radio frequencies of this aircraft. Maybe you forgot to turn radios on?
Red Griffin ATC takes into consideration both the radio status (on or off) and volume. Specifically, radio (either COM1 or COM2) must be on and volume higher that 10%.
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