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Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Thu May 21, 2020 8:49 am

Hooray wrote in Thu May 21, 2020 8:46 am:might be better to ask/discuss this on the devel list, if in doubt it might be easy enough to support in the future, i.e. by adding a corresponding option

It could be a good idea. Do you know whether this is actually possible at the moment?
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Hooray » Thu May 21, 2020 9:18 am

There is already support for different "channels" (voices) [1] [2] - so technically it should be possible, the question is whether the AI system is using hard-coded heuristics or if it's already using properties. Either way, it would not be difficult to patch any hard-coded heuristics accordingly.

In general, the hard-coded AI system has been repeatedly considered "deprecated", even by its latest maintainer/creator (who is hoping to re-implement the system in a standalone fashion [3]), and the usual tendency has been to simply ask for properties to make some hard-coded things better configurable or provide an option to disable certain parts entirely, because of hard-coded restrictions [4]

Given how little has happened in the "FGTraffic" department (as per the commit logs, devel list/forum talks, it seems most likely that a scripted option using Python or Nasal is going to replace the built-in system sooner or later - it seems some of the combat folks are already using a multiplayer-enabled script to inject arbitrary AI traffic, and it would not be very difficult to take such a script and extend it to support the existing set of AI/ATC resources - in fact, ATC-Pie is internally also using a traffic injection mechanism, which is to say that it's probably safe to consider the hard-coded AI traffic system to be EOL/obsolete, unless some senior contributor steps up to rework the system as per [3], or at least offers to help review/integrate corresponding patches - what has been happening in the last couple of years is that Nasal/XML based fgdata solutions are filling a niche that exists due to the lack of ongoing core development in that area, and all that started back in the times of flug's "bombable" (dog fighting) add-on:

Subject: Ground services !

Hooray wrote:As a matter of fact, Durk himself mentioned on various ocassions that he'd be supportive of generalizing the original AI code accordingly, so that some of its hard-coded and built-in assumptions could be better customized or disabled completely (referring for instance to the Bombable/dog-fighting use-case):

viewtopic.php?p=134970&#p134970
Durk wrote:Note that I won't oppose other ideas, and if you have nasal code that would require certain components of the AI system to be shutdown, or need specific hooks to interface certain C++ components with nasal bindings, than I would certainly be willing to support that.


Speaking in general, I am however not sure if Durk is currently around or actively involved at the code level. Thus, my recommendation would be to look up James' comments involving the jetways/AI discussion, because he's been around for a number of years now, and he's basically the most likely person to help with reviewing/integrating such changes, because he belongs to the camp of the few people not just wanting to see less Nasal code running in the main loop, but also offering to actually do the corresponding C++ work to provide alternatives that are accessible to Nasal coders.



[1] http://wiki.flightgear.org/Flite_TTS
[2] http://wiki.flightgear.org/Howto:Custom ... TTS_Voices
[3] http://wiki.flightgear.org/FGTraffic
[4] http://wiki.flightgear.org/Status_of_AI_in_FlightGear
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby pb321 » Thu May 28, 2020 12:30 am

After a fresh start at KOSH with the B-1900d, I get the following message: Beechcraft 759. This is. Unable to approve startup. You not approved for this airfield. Is this something I'm doing wrong? Is anything intended to follow "This is"?
Details of the startup:
1. Loaded FlightGear
2. Turned "Ext. Power" to ON.
3. Tuned radio to GND 121.90
4. Clicked RG ATC "Request Engine Start" button.
5. Got message

Thank you.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Thu May 28, 2020 6:48 am

pb321 wrote in Thu May 28, 2020 12:30 am:After a fresh start at KOSH with the B-1900d, I get the following message: Beechcraft 759. This is. Unable to approve startup. You not approved for this airfield. Is this something I'm doing wrong? Is anything intended to follow "This is"?

Hello there and thank you for your feedback.

I tried your very same setup and, as far as I can tell, everything is fine here. I however noticed that, soon after FlightGear has been started and I start the aircraft (Beechcraft 1900D) Red Griffin ATC uses COM2 which is tuned to the nearby KATW airport. If this is so, and you request start up, Red Griffin ATC will respond you are not in that airfield because the start up request has been sent to KATW ground. You actually are at KOSH.
When I tune COM1 to KOSH Ground @ 121.90 Mhz and switch the radio selector to COM1, Red Griffin ATC properly uses KOSH radios and, at that point, all of your requests are sent to KOSH ATC.
You should also check the radio actually used by Red Griffin ATC in the upper area of the dialog. The selected COM is reported in yellow just above the request buttons.

As a matter of fact, I tried your setup in FlightGear 2020.2.0 git and used the latest Red Griffin ATC version 1.4.0

Can you also please check whether you see any error in "Nasal Console"? (you can open the Nasal Console from Debug menu)

Please let me know if the above is your case or whether you still experience this bug. It would also be appreciated if you could report both FlightGear and Red Griffin ATC versions.

Thank you and enjoy Red Griffin ATC!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby pb321 » Thu May 28, 2020 2:49 pm

Thank you for your quick reply, I believe I understand what you are saying. However:
1. When I tune to 121.900 on Com1, Red Griffin indicates COM1: **WARNING: This aircraft's radio is unusable ** 121.90 MHz - Distance: 5.40 nm @999 (degrees) - Quality: 5 (I assume this is because the Com1/Com2 switch has not been moved to Com1?)
2. On the B1900d, I don't see a moveable Com1/Com2 switch. How do you switch radios on this aircraft? But even if I don't find a way to switch between Com1/Com2, if the correct frequency is on the top of Com2 and the selected radio is Com2, shouldn't the correct frequency be read by ATC?
3. If the plane is sitting at KOSH, why would it find KATW and auto-tune to it instead of the radio at KOSH? This has happened at most, but not all, of the airports I've tried using RG-ATC.
FG2020.2.0 Build 3671
Red Griffin ATC 1.4.0
No errors in Nasal Console.

Thanks for your help!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Fri May 29, 2020 12:58 pm

pb321 wrote in Thu May 28, 2020 2:49 pm:1. When I tune to 121.900 on Com1, Red Griffin indicates COM1: **WARNING: This aircraft's radio is unusable ** 121.90 MHz - Distance: 5.40 nm @999 (degrees) - Quality: 5 (I assume this is because the Com1/Com2 switch has not been moved to Com1?)

Would please tell me with what aircraft is happening this specific condition? I tried it with Beechcraft 1900D and had not such an issue, so I suspect this happened while using another aircraft?
However, as a matter of fact, some aircraft in FlightGear have incomplete radio implementation and sometimes crucial radio properties are completely missing. When you see the above warning it means Red Griffin ATC cannot find a particular radio property it relies on and, as such, radio cannot be used because it does not provide useful or complete information.

pb321 wrote in Thu May 28, 2020 2:49 pm:2. On the B1900d, I don't see a moveable Com1/Com2 switch. How do you switch radios on this aircraft? But even if I don't find a way to switch between Com1/Com2, if the correct frequency is on the top of Com2 and the selected radio is Com2, shouldn't the correct frequency be read by ATC?

It is the light-gray switch lever to the right of the frequency display.
As for frequency selection, it depends by the aircraft and its radio implementation. Red Griffin ATC "scans" a maximum of three COM radios (some aircraft also have COM3) starting from COM1. The first radio being usable and having a valid frequency (that is associated to a ATC radio) Red Griffin ATC will use that COM.
This means, in case of Beechcraft 1900D, if COM1 is tuned to a valid frequency while COM2 is the selected one, it will use COM1. I guess this is however a bug and I need to see whether there is a specific property for that.

pb321 wrote in Thu May 28, 2020 2:49 pm:3. If the plane is sitting at KOSH, why would it find KATW and auto-tune to it instead of the radio at KOSH? This has happened at most, but not all, of the airports I've tried using RG-ATC.

Again, it depends by the COM radio in use by Red Griffin ATC. If you are at KOSH, but the radio in use is tuned to KATW (and, no, there is no "auto tune" feature in Red Griffin ATC) all the operations (including CTR) will be referred to KATW, no matter where you are at. Red Griffin ATC takes the assumption that if you are tuned to a specific airport, it means all of your operation are related to that airport,.
As a matter of fact, when I start FG @ KOSH, I see COM1 is already tuned to KATW (and I do not know why FG does that) and for this reason, according to what I wrote above, Red Griffin ATC considers KATW your "operational airport". This behavior is however useful and fundamental when you are flying over an airport (such as in case of take-off or landing) but you are actually referring to your "operational" one.

pb321 wrote in Thu May 28, 2020 2:49 pm:Thanks for your help!

Thank you for your feedback and support!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby pb321 » Fri May 29, 2020 8:13 pm

Thank you, again, for your quick reply!

I have been using only the Beech B1900d. Here is the procedure I've been using:
1. Start FlightGear at KOSH (active runway)
2. Click EXT PWR to ON position.
3. Start Red Griffin ATC. Display shows:
KOSH Wittman Rgnl Ground @0.0 kt (0.0 km/h)
CTR: KOSH Wittman Rgnl RNG 30 nm DST 1.01 CRS 332 deg - 121.90 MHz - inside
COM1:**WARNING: This aircraft's radio is unusable ** 118.30 MHz - Distance: 5.40 nm @ 999 deg - Quality: 5

Please note the Warning message is pointing to the COM1 active frequency of 118.30. The Standby frequency on COM1 is 119.30. COM2 is set to an active frequency of 128.30 and a Standby frequency of 121.90.
4. Click the XFR/MEM lever to the right of the COM2 display. This makes 121.90 the active frequency on COM2.
Note that the switch to set the active radio shows COMM1, COMM2 and PA but cannot be moved. Also, the messages on the Red Griffin dialog box do not change.
5. Click "Radio Check" in the Red Griffin dialog box. This displays the following pilot message (in green letters):
",Beechcraft 759. Radio check 118.30."

The ATC return is:
"Beechcraft 759,,Reading you 5. ATIS available 125.90."

6. Click "Request Engine Start" in the Red Griffin dialog box. This displays the following pilot message:
",Beechcraft 759. Request start-up."

The ATC return is:
"Beechcraft 759, This is. Contact Ground at 121.90"

7. Change the Standby frequency of COM1 to 121.90 by either hitting F12 (radio settings) or using the black knobs under the abbreviation "COM".
8. Click the XFR/MEM lever on COM1. The bottom most (yellow) message in the RG diaolog box now reads:
COM1: **WARNING: This aircraft's radio is unusable ** 121.90 MHz - Distance 5.40 nm @ 999 deg - Quality: 5

8. Click "Radio Check" in the Red Griffin dialog box. This displays the following pilot message:
",Beechcraft 759. Radio check 121.90."

The ATC return is:
"Beechcraft 759,, Reading you 5. ATIS available 125.90."

9. Click "Request Engine Start" again returns the following pilot and ATC messages:
",Beechcraft 759. Request start-up."

The ATC return is:
"Beechcraft 759, This is. Unable to approve startup. You are not in this airfield."


So I must be doing something wrong when flying the B1900d if the two of us get different results. I hope you can determine from this what it is , exactly.

I tried the Robin DR-400 and it works with Red Griffin at KOSH just fine. I merely tune the Standby on COM1 to GND 121.90, flip the switch to make it the active frequency, Request Engine Start and the start up is approved! So it must be something I don't get about the B1900d.

Thank you!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Sun May 31, 2020 4:02 pm

pb321 wrote in Fri May 29, 2020 8:13 pm:Thank you, again, for your quick reply!

Hello there and thank you for your detailed report.
I tried your procedure over and over but I could not reproduce it not even one time. At this point it makes me think we are using different FlightGear and Beechcraft 1900D versions? However, according to one of your previous posts, it seems we are both using the same software versions.
I use FlightGear 2020.2.0 git and the Beechcraft I used for these tests has been downloaded from the official repository through the launcher. I tried both JBSim and Yasim versions and both work just fine here.

pb321 wrote in Fri May 29, 2020 8:13 pm:So I must be doing something wrong when flying the B1900d if the two of us get different results. I hope you can determine from this what it is , exactly.

I will test your condition again. I do not even think you are doing something wrong as the procedure you are following seems, at least to me, normal and causing no interference with Red Griffin ATC. I will continue to investigate more about this.

pb321 wrote in Fri May 29, 2020 8:13 pm:I tried the Robin DR-400 and it works with Red Griffin at KOSH just fine. I merely tune the Standby on COM1 to GND 121.90, flip the switch to make it the active frequency, Request Engine Start and the start up is approved! So it must be something I don't get about the B1900d.

This is what I get when I use Beechcraft B1900D or any other plane having usable COM radios.

pb321 wrote in Fri May 29, 2020 8:13 pm:Thank you!

Thank you so much for your time and for testing Red Griffin ATC. I am sorry I cannot replicate your bug and condition. I will test it again, though.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby pb321 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:44 am

Problem solved. I tried several different planes including the C172, C182, PA28-161 -- all worked with RG ATC at KOSH as they should. So I downloaded the launcher version of the B1900d. It, too, worked as it should. So I don't know where I got the variant of the B1900d that doesn't work properly. I still have it on my computer and will compare the two variants I have on my computer and report any relevant differences, if any. I thank you for your time in working to track down the problem -- it definitely is the plane variant I have been using, not Red Griffin ATC!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:05 am

pb321 wrote in Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:44 am:Problem solved.

Very good news!
I am very glad you worked it out and you can now use Red Griffin ATC with the Beechcraft 1900D!

In case you get other bugs or see inappropriate behavior in Red Griffin ATC, please report them here. Also please feel free to send your ideas, feedback and suggestions.

Thank you for your time and for testing Red Griffin ATC.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Hooray » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:03 am

FYI: I sent a heads-up to rleibner, who's created several other ATC related add-ons, namely the Spoken ATC, GCA (ground controlled approach) and PAR add-ons in $FG_Addon - maybe the two of you can find a way to collaborate, either to integrate relevant functionality or actually merge some features into a dedicated add-on ?

Image

http://wiki.flightgear.org/Spoken_ATC
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Spoken_GCA
http://wiki.flightgear.org/PAR_instrument
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:21 am

Hooray wrote in Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:03 am:FYI: I sent a heads-up to rleibner, who's created several other ATC related add-ons, namely the Spoken ATC, GCA (ground controlled approach) and PAR add-ons in $FG_Addon - maybe the two of you can find a way to collaborate, either to integrate relevant functionality or actually merge some features into a dedicated add-on ?

Hi there!
I am aware of the work of rleibner and, to tell the truth, I started Red Griffin ATC after having tried his Spoken ATC and felt FlightGear needed a more complete ATC addon. I have also found some bugs in this addon and reported in the dedicated thread, without getting any answer. So I started to develop my own ATC addon, that is Red Griffin ATC.
As for GCA, if I am not wrong, it seems it has been replaced and superseded by PAR, an addon I have never been successful in having it to work here, not to mention the dialog windows does now show properly in my system (buttons are hidden way below its height). I admit I did not spend much time on it and did not investigate why it does not run in my FG, so I gave up. I will give PAR a new try as soon as I have time as it seems to be a nice addon but, as far as I can tell, my Red Griffin ATC partially has similar functionalities (certainly not complete) in approach and ILS modes.
When you are approaching a runway, Red Griffin ATCshows a "direction bar" indicating how you should correct your course in order to get to the center of the runway. I am working on a similar function for the altitude so you can perfectly land in the runway's touchdown area.

Thank you for your support and suggestions!
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby rleibner » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:08 am

Hi Red Griffin, and hi everyone,
After a while "out of range", I'm again on the air (in these #stayathome days).

As Hooray wrote, I totally agree to collaborate either to integrate relevant functionality or actually merge some features into a dedicated add-on .
I'm sorry to know that the PAR addon does not work on Red Griffin's FG. May by with more info we could fix the issues.
Anyway, if you think it convenient, I am at your disposal.
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby Dew2118 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:33 am

I have a bit of a problem here, I installed red griffin ATC but I can't run flightgear with it https://ibb.co/dLTXTMF https://ibb.co/7Yjf1fX
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Re: Red Griffin ATC - Speaking ATC addon for Flightgear

Postby RedGriffin » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:45 am

rleibner wrote in Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:08 am:Hi Red Griffin, and hi everyone,
After a while "out of range", I'm again on the air (in these #stayathome days).

Hello rleibner!
I everything went well for you during this "out of range" period.

I tried your PAR addon just once but it did not work in my FG installation. If I can recall it right, when the dialog opens up, I see in the wiki there are buttons on the bottom of the window, but in my case I could not see any button and therefore I could not start the addon. I guess it is because the buttons are shown off the dialog area, but it is just my bare opinion after having seen the rendering of the dialog.

I will try to run and use yuor addon as soon as I have time and I will provide a better and more useful feedback.

Thank you!
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