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Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby wlbragg » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:34 pm

I'm not sure this is the right place to ask this question but it is a "new feature" and I may be asking for another new feature if it's not already there. The "NEW" mouse mode notification. Is there a toggle to turn that off?
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby Gijs » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:11 pm

Debug > User Interface Options from the top of my head.
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby VicMar » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:09 am

Doesn't that switch on top of your head get itchy?
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby Gijs » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:16 am

Hehehe. You do make me wonder if "off the top of my head" is better? I hear "from" all the time, but maybe that's just Dunglish?
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby DFaber » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:28 am

Gijs wrote in Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:11 pm:Debug > User Interface Options from the top of my head.


unfortunately this doesn't disable the message, only the possibility to switch into Flight Control Mode. I also like to have an option to turn notification off completely.

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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby zakalawe » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:53 am

Hmm, I'm not sure how to handle this. The notification (and many others that ought to be/ will hopefully be added) are to help new users who otherwise get confused that the mouse is 'acting weird' (Though this will be helped by changing the default right-mouse behaviour to spring-loaded, not cycle, mode).

I don't want to have to add a GUI dialog which makes it possible to turn every single new / improved UI feature we add off, for the sake of people who're used to the old behaviour. The UI has to evolve! Most of the improvements are going to be changes that add new things (eg, tooltips) which were previously impossible, or had to be done an ugly way. (Of course people used to the previous setup may disagree, but that is unfortunately how human beings work)

We can add a single 'don't show popups' option, but then people may complain that the view-mode-cucle and FoV-cycle feedback is also gone, if they use that option. And the relevant dialog ('View options') is already full of options that most people don't use. (I sure can't tell you what they all do!)

If you can suggest a coherent UI option that scales going forwards (as we add more on-screen feedback), I will be delighted to add it. I just don't want to end up with /sim/gui/options/ full of enable-foobar flags.
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby DFaber » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:12 am

Hi James,

zakalawe wrote in Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:53 am:We can add a single 'don't show popups' option, but then people may complain that the view-mode-cucle and FoV-cycle feedback is also gone, if they use that option. And the relevant dialog ('View options') is already full of options that most people don't use. (I sure can't tell you what they all do!)


it's not the popups that are annoying. The FoV change, View Name display or screenshot notification is good and informative and I would miss it if I had to decide. It is just this one and only View-mode-cycle notification which always gets in the way. Of course a lot of Users won't see that often, but if you work with Aircraft Models or simply want to make Screenshots from different external Views during an MP Event you are constantly required to wait until the notification disappears again. Videos recorded from screen suffer from that too. I'd be pretty happy if it was in the developer section of the UI.

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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby Thorsten » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:30 am

But if you know you're making screenshots, then a single 'Don't show popups' would do - you can simply turn everything off for the event. That'd actually be my favourite option - as somewhat experienced user I'd prefer to see no popups or tooltips at all because they break the feeling of immersion.
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby zakalawe » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:33 am

Right, a screenshot mode that hides everything is possible, but also, you realise if you switch to spring-loaded right-mosue there is no popup?

I really need to decide when I make it the default mode, since all existing users will hate me, but most people who've tried it prefer it (unless they fly with the mouse).
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby Hooray » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:43 am

zakalawe wrote in Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:53 am:If you can suggest a coherent UI option that scales going forwards (as we add more on-screen feedback), I will be delighted to add it. I just don't want to end up with /sim/gui/options/ full of enable-foobar flags.


100% agreed, on the other hand - it is getting obvious that we do have many users with very different requirements - some need tooltips and other interactive support, others may want to capture GUI elements, and others prefer the highest possible degree of immersion.

So having a handful of boolean flags to configure certain features would make it trivial to use a Nasal-space script to automatically set up "profiles" for different needs - such profiles could be conventional PropertyList XML files and they would be contributed by end users for different needs and purposes - so people could simply select a matching profile, rather than individually toggling those properties.

We cannot possibly anticipate or foresee how people are going to use FlightGear - so providing a high degree of configurability simply makes sense, and allowing profiles to be saved, makes it easy to manage different configurations.
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby Thorsten » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:48 am

I've tried the spring-loaded mouse option, and I like it on a conceptual level. In practice, my force of habit let me crash four helicopters before I returned to the old version ... But I also tried to change view in the FSX demo using the Flightgear mouse options, so that's just personal bias.

I think there's one real problem in the spring-loaded mode, which is that occasionally I need to operate the menu, and then I remember I had to use the tab key - but that's assigned to a function in some aircraft and doesn't work in those (the Lightning uses it to bring up the external power and chute repack dialog, the ufo uses it to bring some other menu,...).

So my unqualified recommendation would be to let the default point to the new version and keep the old scheme selectable, because the experienced users are experienced enough that they can be bothered to adjust to the old scheme in the menu. And the tab conflicts should be removed then.
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby zakalawe » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:29 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:48 am:I've tried the spring-loaded mouse option, and I like it on a conceptual level. In practice, my force of habit let me crash four helicopters before I returned to the old version ... But I also tried to change view in the FSX demo using the Flightgear mouse options, so that's just personal bias.


Right, I've had similar responses from other long-time users - it takes some getting used to, but it's nice after that.

Thorsten wrote in Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:48 am:I think there's one real problem in the spring-loaded mode, which is that occasionally I need to operate the menu, and then I remember I had to use the tab key - but that's assigned to a function in some aircraft and doesn't work in those (the Lightning uses it to bring up the external power and chute repack dialog, the ufo uses it to bring some other menu,...).

So my unqualified recommendation would be to let the default point to the new version and keep the old scheme selectable, because the experienced users are experienced enough that they can be bothered to adjust to the old scheme in the menu. And the tab conflicts should be removed then.

A couple of points - for sure I'm going to keep the old scheme selectable - and move the option to dialog box outside the debug menu. Same with the tooltip enable/disable UI. And the aircraft which use tab need to be fixed - it's only a handful, but in each case I don't use the aircraft so I don't know what alternative key to suggest.

However, I don't understand why it makes any difference to using the menu - probably I'm being stupid, but can you explain the precise steps which mean you need to use tab key? Since the whole point of spring-loaded mode is that the mouse always works normally once you release the button - so the menus should work fine without any need to press tab.
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby Thorsten » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:00 pm

Well, I'm one of the dreaded mouse pilots, so I usually need it in control mode, so I need to switch to menu operations mode somehow when I want to access the menu 8)
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby zakalawe » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:24 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:00 pm:Well, I'm one of the dreaded mouse pilots, so I usually need it in control mode, so I need to switch to menu operations mode somehow when I want to access the menu 8)


I think I've pieced this together - you are using TAB to cycle into flight-controls mode, and then using spring-loaded right-mouse to toggle between that and view-look mode?

Wow. That is, uh, 'emergent' behaviour :) As in, I never even considered it. Do you like it?

But yes, in that case you sure do need TAB to get back to regular mouse mode. As I said, the main thing is fixing up the aircraft, I have been hoping people who fly them would propose alternate keybindings or patches but so far no one did.
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Re: Mouse notification toggle switch

Postby Thorsten » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:31 pm

Yes, I like it - it feels much more natural to look around in the cockpit that way while flying. I suppose if I had started out that way, then I would feel really comfortable with it, after all menu operations are something that breaks immersion as well, so I try to avoid it if possible, but since I have years of reflexes changing the view the old way... I'm probably not going to change that habit without a huge incentive.

But as a new default - really, go for it. It's good, the concept is superior.
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