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Ground services !

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Re: Ground services !

Postby Johan G » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:41 pm

Catalanoic wrote in Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:13 pm:Nice idea [...]

Johan G wrote in Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:42 pm:Indeed :)

ThomasS wrote in Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:14 pm:Are your comments meant ironically due to the complexity of jetways.nas?

No, it was not meant ironically. If it in due time would work as well as the animated jetways can work it would be a great feature that probably would scale well.

I do appreciate the complexity of it though. The jetways are complex, need a lot of configuration to work, both scenery and aircraft side, and I think there is a tool for placing them. In addition and to make them usable for scenery and aircraft developers there is also documentation.

As the ground services currently are mostly done aircraft side, there is probably very little commonality between them. The features that mostly are done FlightGear side probably also have rather little in common, as they nearly always was developed as descrete features by different developers. Integrating those in an extensible framework is no small task.
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Re: Ground services !

Postby pommesschranke » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Johan G wrote in Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:41 pm: I think there is a tool for placing them.



yes, the jetway editor is included in FG: AI->Jetways

And we can import jetway locations and headings for at least 340 airports from the gateway.
Here are the ICAO.jetway.xml files (FlightGear format) for anyone who like to use them:
https://github.com/mherweg/Airports

I did not yet suggest to include them in terrasync because at a few airports it will result in duplicate jetways
(AI and non-AI type)
here are more details:
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Animated_jetways


About airport ground vehicles:
A while ago HerbyW and I did a successful Multiplayer-Pushback. The trick was, that one user had set his FG to "hot" and the other not.
--prop:/sim/multiplay/hot=true


At 2 airports I made cars driving around as AI scenario. But such AI scenarios live in FGDATA and are therefore hard to share with others :-( The current GUI dialogue for that is limited.

https://github.com/mherweg/OMDB-fg-Cust ... /master/AI
https://github.com/mherweg/RJBB-fg-Cust ... htplan.xml
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Re: Ground services !

Postby CaptB » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:03 pm

GSX ( for FSX ) uses gate and aircraft configuration to figure out how to position/animate ground services.

Initially those vehicles just spawn near the aircraft, if the gate is not customized they might as well spawn in the middle of the terminal building. If the aircraft is not customized ( no positions and angles for the door ) the vehicles will not approach the aircraft correctly.

The only thing that uses groundnets ( taxiways ) seems to be the followme car.
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Re: Ground services !

Postby pommesschranke » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:49 pm

I just installed the latest Version (1.6) of WED (Wold Editor) and I noticed that you can define parking locations and AI networks for ground vehicles.

Currently we'd need a C++ developer to use this data for FG or a C++ developer that exposes those AI networks to Nasal and then Nasal Code that lets the cars & trucks drive around.
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Re: Ground services !

Postby flycanarias » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:32 pm

Well, good news.
I think we need to do several things connected to the ground services.

1) We'd want to have aircraft-independent ground services. This would require to make them a feature just as the jetways, meaning to make a dialog for toggling them in the general FG program and set the different vehicles. Then we need to program the aircraft for it, meaning to mark passenger doors, cargo doors etc., so that the vehicles can connect to the aircraft.
In this step, they can just appear anywhere next to the aircraft.
2) In the long term we can also set different ground networks for the airports. I think this requires really much time.

A problem also known with the jetway feature is, that very few planes and airports are equipped with it...
So very few people do really use it. We should definitely try to avoid this.

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Re: Ground services !

Postby pommesschranke » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:32 am

flycanarias wrote in Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:32 pm:2) In the long term we can also set different ground networks for the airports. I think this requires really much time.


It's easy to do with WED.
As soon as it is possible to use WED 1.6 to upload to the gateway more an more of those networks will be uploaded.

A problem also known with the jetway feature is, that very few planes and airports are equipped with it...


looking at terrasync: you are right. Only KSFO has AI jetways.
Here are more details: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Animated_jetways

I have AI jetways for 382 airports here:
https://github.com/mherweg/Airports

I cannot upload them to terrasync because at some (few) airports it would result in duplicate jetways (AI and non-AI)
and at many airports they do not fit exactly to the buildings that we have.
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Re: Ground services !

Postby it0uchpods » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:10 am

I am planning for an advanced ground system that does similar to GSX in my MD-88/MD-90 series sometime. Perhaps I should make it available FGFS-wide?
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Re: Ground services !

Postby CaptB » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:36 am

@it0uchpods:

FGFS wide is better in my view as it is a generic feature many airliners might use. Same goes for things like RAAS that is discussed in another thread.
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Re: Ground services !

Postby flycanarias » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:13 pm

Is this thread still active?
I would really want this feature to be implemented.
Is anyone currently working on it??
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Re: Ground services !

Postby ThomasS » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:32 am

My impression is that several people are working on several aspects of ground services but with different concepts. So do I. I'm working on a graph like system based on groundnet.xml which provides a kind of invisible rails where ground vehicles will move on. But this is in an early proof of concept phase so I cannot announce anything.
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Re: Ground services !

Postby Catalanoic » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:17 pm

You're right, but what you do is really appreciated too and maybe the best choice to follow on.
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Re: Ground services !

Postby flycanarias » Mon May 01, 2017 9:11 am

Well, if we want to end up with very high detail and realism, in my opinion the groundnet based idea is the best way to go.
To have alive ground traffic, we need a vehicle AI system, that lets buses and other vehicles drive around, just to bring more life to the airports.
That is probably the easiest thing to do, as it's pretty similar to the AI aircraft ground system.
Because the groundnet is airport dependent, various liveries could be made, just to add more realism. (e.g. at EDDF, the service vehicles could be from LSG SkyChefs, or Fraport, while in Spain, they could be from Iberia and AENA, and so on)

What seems to be more complicated is the connection between aircraft and the services.
This should do for AI aircraft:
First of all, it needs exact gate positions, as provided by the existing groundnet system, so that the vehicles know where to drive. (This requires some more information about the gates, e.g. if the aircraft is at a jetway gate, no buses or stairways are needed.)
Then, it needs a time setting, when boarding or other services begin their services ( This would make the turnarounds of AI aircraft a lot more realistic)
When they successfully approached the gate, they need to have several positions to approach , e.g. the stairways need to approach the doors, while the cargo and catering vehicles need the cargo doors.
For this, all AI aircraft need these positions specified on the 3d model. (In the long term, openable doors and more are worth a discussion, but this would be too much for now)
For the players aircraft, it's basically the same, just with the modification, that the services can be requested via a dialog. There, we could make a selection, which company should do the services.

I think, with the given opportunities of Flightgear, this is definitely possible, it just requires a lot of time and work to be done.
I myself am very interested in this project, but I don't have the knowledge yet.

Kind regards,

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Re: Ground services !

Postby www2 » Mon May 01, 2017 9:57 am

groundnet is the same concept that x-plane use
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Re: Ground services !

Postby FighterAce » Fri May 26, 2017 2:05 pm

I hope that this feature gets looked into and added into the simulator by the developers.
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Re: Ground services !

Postby pommesschranke » Sat May 27, 2017 12:57 pm

I hope that this feature gets looked into and added into the simulator by the developers.


you can start working on it today. No C++ coding required.

we have the ground services groundnets in apt.dat format on the gateway server.
you can write nasal driven cars that move along those paths
or convert the paths into a "scenario" file.
Do the conversion manually or use any programming language that you like
(python, perl, ...)

example :
OMDB has 2 cars driving around:
https://github.com/mherweg/OMDB-fg-Cust ... /master/AI
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