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Navaid updates

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Re: Navaid updates

Postby SurferTim » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:34 pm

I don't see any apt.dat or nav.dat updates since February 2017. Nothing changed since then?
https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/na ... ster/tree/
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby V12 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:00 am

Updated apt.dat :
https://github.com/FGMEMBERS-SCENERY/Navaids
I did not tested it.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby SurferTim » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:32 am

If that is the case, why am I doing this? Why isn't that in the new FG releases?
I imagine it is because the apt.dat file doesn't match FG scenery?
Isn't the apt.dat used to create scenery?
As an example, FG scenery is incorrect for Saba. The runway is in the wrong location in FG scenery. How will changing the apt.dat file fix that?
I was informed a long while ago that one must rebuild the scenery after changing the apt.dat file to implement the changes.

Edit: FYI, those files work well in X-Plane. Whole different world there.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby f-ojac » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:20 pm

apt.dat, nav.dat and scenery are very closely linked. Updating nav.dat without updating the scenery will improve part of the world but also break certain airports, due to mismatch between nav.dat and the scenery.
So, as long as the scenery workflow will not be reliable, IMHO, it will be difficult to this new nav.dat and apt.dat without problems.
XPlane is a different matter, as the scenery is, to my knowledge, built at startup.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby SurferTim » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:29 pm

X-Plane is a different world as I stated above, but that is where those new apt.dat and nav.dat files came from.

What I now question, since you mentioned it, is how can the scenery have been updated if apt.dat is 4 years old? Terrasync in particular, since that is what most users use.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby WoodSTokk » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:34 pm

TerraGear (the tool to build the scenery) use the information of apt.dat to build airports, especially runways, in the scenery.
If you change something location related in the apt.dat, the scenery must be rebuild. Otherwise the scenery is not in sync with the map.
The nav.dat includes information about all navigation radio stations. If you displace a runway, maybe you must also edit the information for ILS, maybe VOR or NDB that are used for approaching this runway. Maybe there are also changes in the fix.dat.
So this files are all coupled together over the included information. If you change one of them, you should change all of them.
The biggest problem is that a rebuilded scenery doesn't fit exactly in the surrounding scenery.
Therefor scenery rebuild will only be done if it is a island or a group of islands.

Only thinks we can change are radio frequencies and station IDs.
But nothing that change any location.
Maybe we can change runway numbers, but i havn't tested it until now.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby SurferTim » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:48 am

Therefor scenery rebuild will only be done if it is a island or a group of islands.

My experience indicates it won't be done even then.
So scenery will never be changed? We're stuck with what we have? :(
If you are attempting to get me to migrate to X-Plane, you're doing an excellent job.

Edit: ...or do we blame all this lack of improvement on Torsten? Isn't that the scapegoat when stuff doesn't get done?

Edit2: I understand the complexity of the Caribbean update. It involves scenery changes AND apt.dat/nav.dat updates.
I have not seen any way that apt.dat and nav.dat files are upgraded except with a FG version upgrade, it will leave the users of previous versions in the dark.
Shouldn't that be a part of the scenery check when FG starts?
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby f-ojac » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:47 pm

SurferTim wrote in Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:29 pm:What I now question, since you mentioned it, is how can the scenery have been updated if apt.dat is 4 years old? Terrasync in particular, since that is what most users use.

The scenery (= objects, models) lives its own life so yes, it's updated nearly on a daily basis AFAIK. Cf https://scenery.flightgear.org/ . The terrain itself (elevation, coasts) can also be updated as there is no like to nav.dat or apt.dat.
But the airports haven't been updated for a while, except thanks to certain OSM-based projects.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby f-ojac » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:58 pm

SurferTim wrote in Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:48 am:So scenery will never be changed? We're stuck with what we have? :(
If you are attempting to get me to migrate to X-Plane, you're doing an excellent job.

As the terragear toolchain is a small pain in the neck to maintain, other projects are on their way to make us less dependent from it.
SurferTim wrote in Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:48 am:I have not seen any way that apt.dat and nav.dat files are upgraded except with a FG version upgrade, it will leave the users of previous versions in the dark.
Shouldn't that be a part of the scenery check when FG starts?

If there are new .dat files, to my knowledge the cache is rebuilt at startup.
So, to be clear, apt.dat and nav.dat files are important to FG and its scenery, those are two different paths.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby graciela » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:38 am

Today, I updated my sim with fresh Navigraph data and FG with X-P 10 nav.dat, fix.dat and awy.dat. I g-zipped that 3 files and saved them to the Navaids folder in FG root (my standard update procedure). After that update, LZIB has ILS for 22 (OKR 108.3) and 13 (OB 110.7). visit here
Last edited by graciela on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby SurferTim » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:55 am

That's good, but the scenery won't match the apt.dat unless you rebuild the scenery.
Current FG KLAS scenery will show runways 25L and 25R, but X-Plane apt.dat shows runways 26L and 26R.
Current FG TFFR scenery shows runway 11, but X-Plane apt.dat shows runway 12.
...and on and on.

Edit: Then you will have "surprises" at airports like HECA (Cairo). Runway 05C won't be there, only 05L and 05R, and 05R will be where 05C is now, in the wrong location.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby WoodSTokk » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:32 pm

SurferTim wrote in Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:55 am:That's good, but the scenery won't match the apt.dat unless you rebuild the scenery.
Current FG KLAS scenery will show runways 25L and 25R, but X-Plane apt.dat shows runways 26L and 26R.


As i noted previously, only changing the runway numbers is possible.
I have local KLAS now with 08L/08R/26L/26R and all signs updated (there are many wrong signs beside the runway signs).
The other runways 01/19[L|R] are the same, or is there also a change?
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby SurferTim » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:41 pm

I guess there is no need for this then. I'm good with it.
If it is all updated, I wouldn't try an approach to HECA rwy 05R. Got an ILS with no runway there.
Saba TNCS will probably still be messed up. Runway in the wrong place with a fence across it, but that's a different story.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby WoodSTokk » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:23 pm

Yes, HECA is a different story. To reposition or add runways, we need a rebuild.
I can only renumber existing runways, like 25R to 26R but not 25 to 25L. Adding or deleting a character is not possible.
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Re: Navaid updates

Postby Fly-Flot » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:32 pm

Sorry if I'm intruding.
a question
in nav.dat.gz:
We can change the frequencies of NDB / VOR-DME and it works
We can add NDB / VOR points and it works
but DME doesn't work, maybe because it is inserted in the terrasync terrain map?
it's correct ?
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