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v0 landclasses

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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby PH-JAKE » Wed May 04, 2016 6:20 am

erik wrote in Tue May 03, 2016 8:11 am:
SHM wrote in Mon May 02, 2016 5:25 pm:@erik
I am glad this is a lie. Can you point me to cs1 sources please. I need them to better rebuild USA for terraGIT


No, I don't have them and I've never done any serious scenery generation work.
And the person you're talking about has stated that he had never the intention to keep the data for himself, just that it takes time. And since he left scenery development he rather spends his time with his wife and young kid.

Erik


From the looks of it this person has a reasonable excuse to spend his time otherwise, but that does not absolve the Flightgear organization from adhering to the GPL. The organization has to put the appropriate measures in place to make sure this is done. It cannot hide behind one person, who then becomes otherwise occupied. Try thinking about this in the context of a business, they also cannot state "our developer went on to other things, so we have no one to release the source code".
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby Thorsten » Wed May 04, 2016 6:40 am

Please read the whole thread, statto explained the legalities:

Neither of these are Flightgear-specific. v0 files are freely available for download if you know where to look.

Also, I created the cs_ sources for the United States, and these never made it into Terrasync: they have stopped being distributed, and there is no obligation to continue distributing them, as they never became a core part of Flightgear.


(emphasis by myself).
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby DFaber » Wed May 04, 2016 8:30 am

PH-JAKE wrote in Wed May 04, 2016 6:20 am:Try thinking about this in the context of a business, they also cannot state "our developer went on to other things, so we have no one to release the source code".


We are not a business context. We are a bunch of people that enjoy what they do. "Our developer" has been around for a very long time and the community owes him a lot. FlightGear Scenery wouldn't be what it is now without his dedication and work. It is a fair spirit to be thankful for his contribution.

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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby PH-JAKE » Wed May 04, 2016 9:36 am

DFaber wrote in Wed May 04, 2016 8:30 am:
PH-JAKE wrote in Wed May 04, 2016 6:20 am:Try thinking about this in the context of a business, they also cannot state "our developer went on to other things, so we have no one to release the source code".


We are not a business context. We are a bunch of people that enjoy what they do. "Our developer" has been around for a very long time and the community owes him a lot. FlightGear Scenery wouldn't be what it is now without his dedication and work. It is a fair spirit to be thankful for his contribution.

Greetings

The Flightgear organisation is indeed not a business. But like a business, it has obligations according to the GPL, from which it cannot absolve itself by claiming one of its members has gone doing other things.

I respect the work this contributor put in, and do not lay burden there. I'm addressing the Flightgear organisation which manages the distribution.

Kind regards.
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby erik » Wed May 04, 2016 9:49 am

The GPL has no power here since both Vmap0 and CS are almost certainly released under a different license.
The resulting work after processing it will be GPL.

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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby bugman » Wed May 04, 2016 9:53 am

Despite what the creator of the FGMEMBERS-TERRAGIT infrastructure currently thinks - as this thread is 100% about an attempt to improve this system, by regenerating the scenery from the original sources, and to try to compete with the official TerraScenery - not being able to find the sources easily does not mean there is a GPL violation. The GPL violation was claimed on two data sets. Firstly the v0 data set which is public domain - 5 minutes talking to Google and you should find multiple copies of this. The second is 'cs1'. However, as statto, the apparent creator of this data set, states - this was not used in generating the TerraScenery for north America. FlightGear does not need to distribute the cs1 data set - it's not used at all. Hence there is clearly no GPL violation with either v0 or cs_*.

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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby f-ojac » Wed May 04, 2016 3:15 pm

Or how an understandable remote hard drive failure is understood and broadcast as an "organisation" not willing to comply with GPL... Seriously...
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby wkitty42 » Wed May 04, 2016 7:14 pm

what i want to know is if someone were to acquire the public domain v0 files, what needs to be done to them for use in FG scenery?

Code: Select all
North America                           http://geoengine.nga.mil/ftpdir/archive/vpf_data/v0noa.tar.gz
Europe and north Asia                   http://geoengine.nga.mil/ftpdir/archive/vpf_data/v0eur.tar.gz
South America, Africa, and Antarctica   http://geoengine.nga.mil/ftpdir/archive/vpf_data/v0soa.tar.gz
south Asia and Australia                http://geoengine.nga.mil/ftpdir/archive/vpf_data/v0sas.tar.gz

as i understand it, they are in VMAP format and there are tools to convert to several GIS formats...
how does this differ from the NLCD?
what additional processing was done on the NLCD?
was that processing only for generating FG scenery?
if converting the VMAP files to GIS SHAPE files is the necessary processing, how are they then used in the generating of scenery with the current toolkit and gui?
Last edited by wkitty42 on Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby psadro_gm » Wed May 04, 2016 7:35 pm

shapefiles are the preferred local file. ogr decode ( an early part of the tool chain ) chops these into flightgear tiles in a binary format. ogr decode is also capable of reading landclass from a postGRE database. As it uses GDAL for reading GIS files, it may be possible to read other formats as well. I use Shapefiles when testing.

As for NLCD - that is a raster image. A script was written to 'roundify' the data to make it more natural - Statto would have more details. If you took the data 'as is' - you'd get a very nice 'grid' for all landclasses shapes, as all borders are square. There may be a screenshot somewhere on the NLCD of the nlcd data without much processing.
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby statto » Wed May 04, 2016 8:42 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Wed May 04, 2016 7:14 pm:as i understand it, they are in VMAP format and there are tools to convert to several GIS formats...
how does this differ from the NLCD?
what additional processing was done on the NLCD?
was that processing only for generating FG scenery?
if converting the VMAP files to GIS SHAPE files is the necessary processing, how are they then used in the generating of scenery with the current toolkit and gui?


You'd have to convert them into shapefiles in order to use them, but that's been done by a lot of people already, and we've already done that for the project.

The NLCD is a different data source for the USA only, as psadro_gm said that's the rounding that occurred - raster files cannot be shapefiles because of the file structure, so I basically turned these into shapefiles.

The processing wasn't just for FG scenery but that was the primary concern at the time.

Once you have shapefiles for vmap0, all you need to do is put them in their proper folders for Terragear and run Terragear, nothing more is needed - but you'll get almost or exactly the same as the current scenery build, unless you're in an area where the cs_ layer is more detailed (Europe) in which case you'll get worse.

vmap0 is mostly meant for print whole world maps.
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby wlbragg » Wed May 04, 2016 8:55 pm

@wkitty42,

As for NLCD - that is a raster image.

That image has embedded (meta?) data that can be used by QGIS to separate the individual land classes that it contains into separate shape files. The instructions for doing that are available by a Google search, that is how I figured it out. Then those separate shape files can be ran through the "rounding" script available in fgmeta (I think). That process is also probably available through a Google search, one thing I haven't done yet but would love to learn about. I believe it is done in Grass VS QGIS, statto would know the details about this.

The resolution of the raw NLCD actually converts to FG scenery nicely even with the squared off resolution because the layers that are of interest crops, urban, etc are naturally (or really unnaturally) man made lines.


Here is the "rounded" NLCD that I ended up defining as drycrop and natural crop. I really don't remember what the FG server had it defined as. The gray is urban or town. It is all "rounded".
Image

This is the same NLCD in its raw form overlapping the "rounded" data so you can see what the rounding does. The blue is defined as mixedcrop and the purple is drycrop. The "rounded" layer combined or merged different layers into one in many cases, for detail that is not so good, but for vert count it is.
Image

My custom Kansas and Ohio scenery is made from a combination of these sources.

The first time I did custom Kansas and Ohio scenery I used all raw NLCD except water + edited OSM line data.

The final version of custom Kansas and Ohio scenery that I currently distribute in my sig, I used the "rounded" NLCD from the FG server for all land cover except deciduous forest and water + edited OSM line data. If I had it to do over I might have used raw NLCD for urban, town and city.

The "rounded" NLCD eliminated the smaller strips of deciduous forest that are common to the entire Midwest, that class defines the stream landmarks. So the deciduous forest definition below wouldn't be there with just the "rounded" NLCD data. Which would make the below scenery very boring.
Image


The "rounded" NLCD water data was close but in too many cases it redefined the water boundaries and caused trouble with shoreline roads.
In my opinion the city, urban, town, etc really doesn't need to be rounded as it is straight line by nature in many cases, but for lightning the scenery vert count I can see why it was done.
Actually the crops don't necessarily need rounding either as far as the look of the finished scenery is concerned, but again for vert count I understand the reasoning.
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby wlbragg » Wed May 04, 2016 9:04 pm

Another interesting tidbit about the NLCD , see the green upside down t shaped piece in the middle of the screen in the top image. That is actually road easement, usually grass. In my custom scenery, as well as a lot of the "rounded" NLCD it is defined as grass (I think it was). In my custom scenery you can see how the OSM roads fit it nicely.
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby wlbragg » Wed May 04, 2016 9:10 pm

Once you have shapefiles for vmap0, all you need to do is put them in their proper folders for Terragear and run Terragear, nothing more is needed - but you'll get almost or exactly the same as the current scenery build, unless you're in an area where the cs_ layer is more detailed (Europe) in which case you'll get worse.

And for North America, it is worth the effort to get at least some of the NLCD classes to augment the vmap0, even if you have to round it, otherwise your only other recourse is to edit shape files if you want it better than what we already have.
In all honesty, the vmap0 data for North America isn't bad on the large scale, it just doesn't contain current man made detail and the water layer is horrendous. The road layer was bad prior to the introduction of the OSM line data which quickly improved that lot.
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby wlbragg » Thu May 05, 2016 3:07 am

Some easy sources for NLCD
ftp
http/cloud
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Re: v0 landclasses

Postby bugman » Thu May 05, 2016 9:26 am

Wayne, maybe you should get yourself into the WS 3.0 team ;)

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