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Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby VicMar » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:46 am

It's your choice: If you want your models in TerraSync you have to keep your file sizes small otherwise the fps for lower end computer users makes flight impossible.

The other route is to make 'Custom' scenery.
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby legoboyvdlp » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:52 am

If you have trouble with any model larger than 2Mb or can't load a texture larger than 256*256 you will also have trouble running anything else. That limit is totally unnecessary especially since scenery objects can be disabled and the number in view can be controlled in LOD ranges. At the very least allowing up to 2048*2048 would make sense - this is well within the minimum texture size of Intel drivers. And 2Mb is an awfully small amount - but can be lived with if proper textures are allowed! Where will this stop - maybe world scenery 3.0 should not use CORINE and OSM after all since users on low end computers will have trouble running it. It obviously doesn't matter than WS 3.0 should have a LOD system to simplify scenery :roll:

Is the LOD system that is already present and the scenery objects toggle not enough?
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby VicMar » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:29 am

This is beginning to look like "I'm all-right, let's pull up the ladder".

If we don't make allowance for low end users, when does the definition 'Open Source' stop?

A flight Sim without genuine scenery becomes a game.

As I've said before; Until someone gives us a method of loading all the requirements without fps suffering, we have to accept that limiting the amount of processing is the only way.
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby daweed » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:18 pm

VicMar wrote in Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:46 am:It's your choice: If you want your models in TerraSync you have to keep your file sizes small otherwise the fps for lower end computer users makes flight impossible.

The other route is to make 'Custom' scenery.


=> u are wrong that not my choice, this is yours.

And and as i said, terminal in LFLL as like in many other airport have texture png file in 1024x1024 or 2048x1024 [ they are alrealy in TS ] and the file is only ~ 500Ko that not so much we are not here talking about a 2MB file

Here is an extract of the rejected texture (extract of a 2048x1024 png file)

Image

Here is what you want i do (extract of the same png reduce to 512x256)

Image

All details are lost

So yes, my choice is to try to have a good texturing file, but it's clear that if you want a minecraft like texturing, 256x256 is a good resolution choice, but I think FG airports still deserve better than that.

VicMar wrote in Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:29 am:This is beginning to look like "I'm all-right, let's pull up the ladder".


That not fair, i am not asking here to break the limit, but i don't understand why i have been allowed in the past to push a 1024x2048 file in the past for the terminal and why now not.

i work on model to not break the 2mb limit , but regading the texture file which is what user see to be as ugly as you request, that not possible
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby legoboyvdlp » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:36 pm

VicMar wrote in Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:29 am:If we don't make allowance for low end users, when does the definition 'Open Source' stop?

Did you miss the level of detail sliders for a start? I'm not sure why you bring in open source - are we talking about different things?

Until someone gives us a method of loading all the requirements without fps suffering, we have to accept that limiting the amount of processing is the only way.

What methods - apart from what there already is - do you suggest in that case?


The existing scenery is very inefficient primarily due to the terrain. It is essentially impossible to fly in Europe without a Nividia graphics card - particularly France and Germany. I therefore chose to use WS1.0 scenery which performed acceptably. So if it's acceptable to have detailed CORINE scenery in TerraSync what is the difference between that and not allowing at least 1024 textures (the usual average for other programs is 4096!) especially when textures hardly have much impact apart from on loading time?

A 2Mb limit for .AC files is fairly reasonable - it's always good to optimize 3D models especially ensuring that hidden faces are removed, double vertices are avoided - but it requires good high quality textures in order to provide detail and depth - 256px textures just won't do that! Do you have any statistics demonstrating the precise impact of a larger texture - or is it just conjecture perhaps? The largest impact is on VRAM - the speed of the bus loading the texture into memory also affects this. This hardly is going to cause every low end system to drop fifty percent of their performance - in fact I could check for you by switching to the HD 600 and undercocking my processor if you wish...

Increasing the texture size limit to at the very least 1024*1024 if not 2048*2048 should be a no brainer. I am not talking about raising the limit to beyond 4096*4096 - which is what older Intel cards can support - newer ones support 8192*8192!




I think I will choose to ignore the beginning of your post. Perhaps you could choose your words more carefully as being someone who is as a gatekeeper of the official repository for scenery after all representing the project.
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby daweed » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:17 pm

VicMar wrote in Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:29 am:This is beginning to look like "I'm all-right, let's pull up the ladder".

If we don't make allowance for low end users, when does the definition 'Open Source' stop?



there is absolutely no link between low end users and the fact that this project is open source

Just have a look on my signature ....

"GeForce GTX 750 Ti" so old GPU, and i don't have any problem to display the LFLL scenery, that right that my FPS drop down on LFPO or LFPG... but well, does i want to see something looking at what should be an airport with some little impact or does i want to fly only [ never land ] and just see ugly pixel on the ground, well my choice goes for the first statement. [ this time it's my choice ]
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby wkitty42 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:34 pm

heh! my video is a GeForce GT730 with 1meg or 2meg (i've used both with no difference) and no problems other than low frame rates at times... at this time, i have all shader options cranked right except clouds, wind effects and overlay... i do also use OSM stuffs :)

personally speaking, i'm tossed between the graphics... i mean, you cannot see those details when whizzing by at 80kts... paris is bad enough... i'd hate to try to go there with hi-res graphics on all those buildings... even schiphol can be tough at times... and EDDL, even... there needs to be a way to have both hi-res and normal and let the system choose which to use according to the user's settings and what the system can handle as determined by the sim...
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby VicMar » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:55 pm

OK. You fellers don't need to make me admit your computing knowledge is far more advanced than mine. I don't know my CPU from my CDU or my BMW from my JCB, but I do know the restrictions on model submissions to TerraSync. I apply them to the best of my knowledge;

I have had models submitted with multiple huge textures e.g. 9 textures each @ 1024 x 1024. My simple brain says that will require some computer processing which could be made simpler with fewer, smaller textures. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you think the restrictions could be expanded or lifted, make it known on the Dev List. If you've the knowledge to improve fps whilst relaxing the restrictions, convince the developers.

They seem to be a bit busy getting the next release ready at this time, but no harm curing problems if you know how.

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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby daweed » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:06 pm

As rules seems to have change [ as i said in the past i have submitted texture for LFLL termin in 1024x2048 without any problem ] please update the rules pages

https://scenery.flightgear.org/contribute.php as where there is clearly rules on size of the model, nothing is setup for the texture

But i wonder how you can have a quality texture with a size of 256x256, if you are not aware on your hadware, i am not on how to have good quality this resolution

=> just not advise that it's not the good size, explain how to have the good quality AND the good size because, i cannot do twice with a 256x512 png texture file

And answer why [ i alreay ask twice ] TS is full off texture 1024x1024 for all around the planet in many airports
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby VicMar » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:27 pm

Take a look at Isi Carter's models and textures. If you are prepared to do the work, the results are there.
https://scenery.flightgear.org/app.php? ... iew&id=124
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby legoboyvdlp » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:39 pm

Clarification of the rules on that page would certainly help. At the moment it seems a bit hit and miss, surely a single texture of 512*1024 is no problem if 1024*1024 textures are fine? Or did the TGV have the nine 1024 textures?
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby daweed » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:44 pm

@Lego, no TGV Station have 2 texture file [ but why allow multiple upload on the form if only one should be ???? ]
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby V12 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:48 pm

daweed :
With i5 2550K and GTX750 Ti I had 8-10 fps in 5000 feets over Paris. After replacement of the died GTX750 with GTX1060, fps is same :(
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby daweed » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:58 pm

VicMar wrote in Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:27 pm:Take a look at Isi Carter's models and textures. If you are prepared to do the work, the results are there.
https://scenery.flightgear.org/app.php? ... iew&id=124


Sorry, but if you want to take me for a dumb .... we cannot comunicate anymore is good condition, this guy does not use texture file in most of his model...
This make poor detailed model.

i follow your link, download the first 3 models, there is no texutre file ...

Then take some with details [ from the same author ]:

download the https://scenery.flightgear.org/app.php? ... ew&id=6815

=> texture file is 1024x1024 .... humm...

https://scenery.flightgear.org/app.php? ... ew&id=6816

=> texture file is 1024x1024 ... again

https://scenery.flightgear.org/app.php? ... ew&id=7433

=> texture file is 2048x512

So ok i am agree to take a lesson, but well with the right and good example

Each of this model have "hudge" texture file [ as you called them regarding the size ] BUT they don't have "Night" part ... that why mine are on 2048x1024 as they have the night part [ as explain here http://wiki.flightgear.org/Howto:Illuminate_faces ] so if this guy make full texture [ night & day ] he will be too on 2048x1024

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Last edited by daweed on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:32 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Lyon Saint Exupery Scenery Project

Postby daweed » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:02 pm

V12 wrote in Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:48 pm:daweed :
With i5 2550K and GTX750 Ti I had 8-10 fps in 5000 feets over Paris. After replacement of the died GTX750 with GTX1060, fps is same :(


=> i didnt said that with my old card i have 25 FPS, i drop down to 7/8 fps when i am landing to LFPO.

=> i will check what happen when flying over Paris, but will surrelly drop down to lower than 5 fps ....BUT i will not sacrifice the scenery to see a "minecraft" scene just to have 5/6 fps more, no way, i am prefering desactivate the scene than having something that is pixel like

Simulator are heavy, rendering need powerfull hardware if you want to see something that look like correct, that a fact

I have 20 Gb RAM and that does not help too
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