Updated navdata without navigraph

[V12]

Properly placed procedure xml files allow to use procedures in the default FG route manager for aircrafts with halfbaked avionics.

[Simworld2020]

I've read a bit about WS3.0 in the wiki , "World Scenery 3.0 roadmap", I don't see navdata mentioned there.
I'm curious, will WS 3.0 divorce navdata from scenery, and will WS 3.0 generate airport layouts per real world geographic coordinates?

As I read through this thread, I was thinking that geographically accurate navdata for the project would add so much realism to the sim and at the same time would still result in many navaids being misplaced in the FG scenery world as it exists now. Especially critical would be the ILS, glideslopes, DMEs, NDBs and VORs used for instrument approaches. Also, some of these navaids that work properly now would no longer work with real-world accurate navaid placement. I have noticed this problem in my own sim when I used real world coordinates for navaids in my custom scenery navaid overlays, many did not work and I had to manually adjust the coordinates to make them work.

How would this gap be bridged.

I have been thinking of an algorithm to adjust placement of instrument approach navaids automatically based on the FG scenery coordinates of the end thresholds of the runways they serve rather than on real world coordinates. I imagine that the algorithm could write the adjusted, "approach critical" navaid coordinates to the custom scenery navdata xml files.

Thoughts ?

[merspieler]

I'm not quite sure as I haven't seen anything it this regard just yet...

FGDATA has already a file Airports/apt.dat.ws3.gz with more up-to-date data.
The apt.dat doesn't contain nav aids tho... so I guess, there hasn't been any work on nav data just yet.

I guess best would be to ask this on the mailing list and get a responce from Scott and/or Stuart.

[Simworld2020]

I'm not quite sure as I haven't seen anything it this regard just yet...

FGDATA has already a file Airports/apt.dat.ws3.gz with more up-to-date data.
The apt.dat doesn't contain nav aids tho... so I guess, there hasn't been any work on nav data just yet.

I guess best would be to ask this on the mailing list and get a responce from Scott and/or Stuart.

Good idea and thank you. I read the "WS3.0 roadmap" again and noticed that airports will continue to be generated from the main apt.dat file. If I understand correctly it seems that there will still be some location issues where WS3.0 airports and current AIP navdata may not line up just right. But the collection of public domain AIP data and its parsing and repackaging for FG use is a very exciting idea and I hope it continues until it is automated and integrated into the sim, what a dream project!

[Johan G]

[...] the collection of public domain AIP data and its parsing and repackaging for FG use is a very exciting idea [...]

Do note that unfortunately publicly available is not always the same as available for use in derivative works.*

While in particular the US AIP, like most works by the US government is exempt from copyright, the AIPs in some jurisdictions are not.

If it is not clearly stated, do expect them to not be free for reuse.

It would probably be a very good idea to look it up for the cases were it is not clearly stated. Very likely this would be stated on the AIS websites that distributes the AIPs. If taking contact with the AIS organizations for clarification if data in the AIPs can be used in derivative works make sure to be clear about that you understand that the derivative works are going to be used for simulated flight only and not for real life navigation.
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* Google Maps comes to mind as an example of data for another purpose.

[Simworld2020]

[...] the collection of public domain AIP data and its parsing and repackaging for FG use is a very exciting idea [...]

Do note that unfortunately publicly available is not always the same as available for use in derivative works.*

Johan G thanks for the distinction,.. I'm now seeing that those who gather and package public data are adding value by their packaging, makes sense to respect that value and its use and sharing.

[Johan G]

There are some other initiatives, like openAIP. But while you can register to download data, the license, CC BY-NC-SA 3.0,[1] is not compatible with the GPLv2[2] of FlightGear, so the data can not be used to build new .dat files to be included in FlightGear.

I do not know for sure, but the non-commercial limitation could possibly be from some AIS organizations not allowing commercial use of their data.

The source for the .dat files was, as I understand it, originally the US National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency's (NGA's) DAFIF (Digital Aeronautical Flight Information File), but unfortunately it was from October 2006 no longer available to the public.[3] Prior to that it was freely available and in public domain.
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[1] openAIP, Terms and Conditions
[2] The non-commersial nature of the CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 (see section 4 (c) of the full license) is not compatible with GPLv2's "You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy [...]" (see section 1 of the GNU GPLv2 license).
[3] DAFIF on Wikipedia.

[SGFlightSimmerYT]

There are some other initiatives, like openAIP. But while you can register to download data, the license, CC BY-NC-SA 3.0,[1] is not compatible with the GPLv2[2] of FlightGear, so the data can not be used to build new .dat files to be included in FlightGear.

I created an account. where to download navdata?

[www2]

I have the idea (more as an semi serious joke) that we need to start our own navdata provider as an solution of this problem and as a source of income for the flightgear project it self.
The last part we need to have all of the core dev's on board.

[merspieler]

Well, feel free to start that project...
About the core devs... good luck... if I were to take that on, I'd make it independent and then fund development via donations and/or feature and bug bounties.

I'd be aboard the idea, just not sure how much I could contribute to it.

[dom_vc10]

I have the idea (more as an semi serious joke) that we need to start our own navdata provider as an solution of this problem and as a source of income for the flightgear project it self.
The last part we need to have all of the core dev's on board.

If you were to spend money donating on that why not just get the navigraph data? yearly subscription is about 32 Euro so that works out at less than 3 Euro a month. It also unlocks airacs on other places for example simbrief which I use so I can have the latest data their too. Honestly I personally do not have much free cash lying around and much prefer free however their pricing is not so crazy to me and I know they have to pay for the data themselves.

[www2]

Thanks merspieler
I think we need start this project as a group than a one man band.
We need set our focus in the areas that the big name NAVDATA providers are not interesting in as small airports and Developing country/Nations as a start.
And as a cure value that we publish our software and data/maps public for free with the limit that not for real world navigation and only use for research/development/simulation/ground training only and sale the data/maps if it use for real world navigation.

@dom_vc10
First i have navigraph and i have no problem if flight gear start to get have hookups for navigraph data.
And the idea that we start our own navdata provider is just an idea.

[merspieler]

and sale the data/maps if it use for real world navigation.

have fun with compliance and safety regulations...

First i have navigraph and i have no problem if flight gear start to get have hookups for navigraph data.

Actually, I've got all the data into fg compatible format with a lil bit of scripting.... so I'd claim that navigraph is already fg compatible....

[www2]

have fun with compliance and safety regulations...

Haha true.

Actually, I've got all the data into fg compatible format with a lil bit of scripting.... so I'd claim that navigraph is already fg compatible....

I mean that the code that flight gear detect navigraph data in $FGHOME/Navdata or the gpl data in $FGROOT/Navdata.

[dom_vc10]

@dom_vc10
First i have navigraph and i have no problem if flight gear start to get have hookups for navigraph data.
And the idea that we start our own navdata provider is just an idea.

Seems like a lot of effort when we already have the possibility to have the data but I can see benefits from it. What would be really good is not having to run scripts to convert the data from navigraph to use in FG but just have FG be able to directly use the navigraph data, it's a few mins effort as it is now but that would be nice.