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Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Questions about the FlightGear organisation, website, wiki etc.

Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Thorsten » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:10 pm

If it disgusts you you'll have to publish your work under a different license. Ethical considerations left aside, GPL makes it legal to sell your work if the source remains available. Your aircraft are still available for free - it just means that someone can choose to pay (if he is uninformed enough to do so or wants better support - I don't know if FPS provides that, but it could be an issue).

But once you choose to publish under GPL, you'll have to swallow that somebody else can make money of it.
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Hooray » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:42 pm

Yes, it is obviously perfectly legal to make money off GPL'ed software.
Some of you folks (chris!) should really have a look into the GPL license, especially if you intend to contribute to FG.
There are some other contributors who specifically decided not to release their work under the GPL due to this possibility.

Making money off GPL'ed software is actually a good opportunity, this can for example be done by providing professional support services or by providing consultancy services. Another opportunity is contract work, i.e. doing paid open source development.

Many large open source projects use such opportunities to fund their development.

Unfortunately, there are also some simple "ripoffs", which just take existing open source software, rename it, re-brand it, re-package it and try to make money by selling it to UNINFORMED people.

this just disgusts me. I created my aircraft specifically so others wouldn't need to pay for them. Give to others freely without expecting anything in return; that's what being a good person is all about. Unless of course what you're giving has been taken by some prick to be sold to others. If I find my X-29a or X-02 on that list of included aircraft on the FPS site i'mma be pissed. :evil: Just wonder if any other devs feel the same way.

This is explicitly allowed under the terms of the GPL.
If I were to take the FG release, put it on a CD, rename it to "The totally awesome Hooray Simulator" and started to sell it on ebay, it would still be perfectly fine.
Even if I took any of your contributions (GPL).

As long as FlightGear is GPL software, the only way to deal with this is an aggressive information campaign, by telling people about FlightGear, and by making it as easy as possible to track FlightGear related derivates.

For aircraft developers, one simple way would be to use custom splash screens that contain the http://www.flightgear.org URL, including a short text saying "This is free software, under the terms of the GNU GPL".

In addition, you can print this information to the console using a Nasal script.
You could even display such information in a splash screen, or an about/help dialog.

Really, people are not going to pay any longer for FlightGear ripoffs, once they immediately see that they are dealing with scams.
Putting watermarks on your screenshots and videos (youtube) is another easy way for dealing with this.

People who are willing to pay for FlightGear, can do so by directly purchasing a set of DVDs using the official flightgear.org website.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Intel-Qube » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:01 pm

I'm quite aware gpl makes it legal for others to sell people's contributions to flightgear. I didn't say it was illegal nor was I going to do anything drastic about it, it's just very annoying. Hooray makes a good point. Those whom develop add-ons for flightgear should be ready to tolerate this kind of activity, but that seems almost like one of the downfalls to gpl. Unfortunately, though, whomever's running the fps site is no fool. For instance, if you type "flightprosim" into the google search bar one of the suggestions will be "flightprosim scam." For any of us, we'd expect to see results such as "fps is ripped from fg," "don't waste your money on fps," but instead you'll get numerous results such as "Review: fps is no scam, it's a real flight sim," as well as other "reviews" along those lines and only the real truth will be dotted here and there. This tells me that the "flightprosim team" is paying google (and maybe yahoo) to bring up results in fps's favor (not like they're the first group to do so). With this extensive data manipulation, it makes it somewhat difficult to counter attack. Perhaps the gpl could be revised in a way that the name of a product can only be modified so as to included the original product name, eg "Flightprosim, a flightgear product." Hope I don't come under too much fire for these statements.
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Hooray » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:19 pm

This tells me that the "flightprosim team" is paying google (and maybe yahoo) to bring up results in fps's favor (not like they're the first group to do so). With this extensive data manipulation, it makes it somewhat difficult to counter attack.

Not necessarily, this sort of "manipulation" is commonly called "SEO": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_optimization

Perhaps the gpl could be revised in a way that the name of a product can only be modified so as to included the original product name, eg "Flightprosim, a flightgear product."

The idea sounds feasible.

Well, there are already a couple of "attribution" licensenses, it would be fairly straight forward to create a derivative license of the GPL v2 and augment it to require FlightGear to be credited, including the URL of its website, as well as highlighting the terms "free software". FlightGear would then have to switch its license accordingly, which would make it easier to deal with such scams by requiring them to prominently credit FlightGear.

But for the time being, the easiest thing would actually be to simply also offer FlightGear packages via ebay, for much less money (i.e. $0.01) - and simply point people to the flightgear.org download.

I think, it would actually be a good idea to have such permanent auctions to protect potential new FlightGear users from such scams.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Intel-Qube » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:51 pm

Maybe you're right, maybe I'm getting too worked up over nothing. (just learned what seo was, feel really stupid now) It just seems as if while the gpl can allow someone to carry out these kinds of ongoings, it doesn't mean one should, AT ALL. It would be kinda like if someone planted an apple tree and then put a sign right next to it that read; "Joe-Bob's apple tree; all apples are free to the public, take as many as you want!" Naturally, people would be pleased to have a free snack, some might even improve the tree by further maintaining it and fertilizing it. But then, some bloak starts picking all of the apples from the tree, builds a fence around it to make it difficult to notice and then sets up a vender with a huge billboard that read: "John-Dan's fine apples. They're the best available! 10¢ each! a product of Joe-Bob's tree"
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Thorsten » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:00 am

In our university cafeteria in middle-Finland, I noticed something pretty amazing.

The way this works is that you get your main course, pass the cash desk and pay your main course, and on the way out get as much salad and bread as you like. Now, from my days in Munich I remember that each semester, about 5000 pieces of silverware and plates vanished from the mensa (in all likelihood, students stocking up their new dorm rooms). So my natural expectation was that this couldn't possibly work - people would simply grab a loaf of bread to take it home.

Each semester, a new group of exchange students from all different places appear. They see the bread for grab in the cafeteria, realize that they can get it for free and save the trip to the bakery, and get a loaf. Nobody says a thing - but the Finnish students look at them like at a strange specimen of human being with an incomprehensible behavioural pattern, trying to figure out just what makes someone grab bread from the cafeteria to take it home.

After two weeks at most, everyone takes as much bread as he needs, no more.

Patience, simply sticking to the idea of allowing people the freedom to decide what they need, even if they decide to exploit the community, manages what a large set of rules and restrictions in Munich has never accomplished.

I don't think whoever is running FlightProSim is ever going to take that path. Let him. Allow him to make money, if he needs it so badly. The example set by doing so will be far more valuable for many others than getting a set of rules and restrictions which makes FPS impossible.
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby kyokoyama » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:21 pm

http://onlineflightsimulator.net/
Another FG ripoff.... (using one of my screenshots!!!)
Look for "B-BIRD" "N127KY" or "AVA0004" -that's me.

Despite having over 1700 posts here, I am not even close to being the most skilled guy here... I'm just words and bad drawing, not experience. :P
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Blender3D » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:41 pm

Nope, it's just a review of FPS.

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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby skyop » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:43 pm

ACCCK!!!! I WAS CHECKING MY EMAIL AND LOOK WHAT I FOUND IN THE ADS SECTION!!!

Image

kyokoyama wrote:http://onlineflightsimulator.net/


LOL I got a "database error" trying to access that page. :lol:
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Quadunit404 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:26 pm

This is why I have an up-to-date adblock list for Opera :wink:
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby skyop » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:03 am

If you download their "source code" from the disclaimers page, you'll (eventually) get a 7zip archive called FlightProSim.7z that supposedly contains the "FlightProSim source code." Attempting to extract it, however, results in a bunch of errors and 0-byte files. I'm pretty sure the GPL requires a valid, extractable source code release, so couldn't we still get on their tail for a GPL violation?
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Quadunit404 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:59 am

I guess so. In order to actually modify the program you need to be able to access the complete source code, I believe.
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby nickyivyca » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:55 am

Let's see...

The 787 comes with a copy of GPL 2.

Section 3:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based from it,
under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

...........


So if the source code isn't machine readable, it violates GPL.
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Guillaume » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:09 am

I don't think Flight Pro Sim informs the users that it's licensed under GNU GPL, but the GPL says:
1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's
source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you
conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate
copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the
notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty;
and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License
along with the Program.


So maybe Flight Pro Sim violates the GPL here too?
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Re: Flight Pro Sim - Real Life Flying

Postby Quadunit404 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:59 pm

Oh yeah, that's right, they don't even mention the GPL on their site at all. There's a definite GPL violation.
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