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I have to laugh not to cry...

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I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby gsagostinho » Wed May 20, 2015 6:29 pm

Just came across this piece of rubbish (will not post the link as not to direct any traffic to those idiots). Enjoy the bumpy ride...

(just to be clear, I have seen these scams before, but never have seen one that directly talks about FlightGear!)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Flight Simulator 2015 Is Better Than Flight Gear!

7 Reasons Why Pro Flight Simulator Is Better Than Flight Gear!
Flight Gear Pro Flight Simulator is better than flightgear? I spoke to the founder Dan Freeman of ProFlightSimulator to find out the differences between Pro Flight Simulator 2015 and Flightgear. This is a comparative Flightgear review and PFS review. Here are some of the reasons why Pro Flight Simulator is NOT Flightgear.

More Updates:
Pro Flight Simulator 2015 offers more updates than Flight Gear. They release new updates every month. As compared to Flight Gea downloads, which releases updates only once every year, they offer a far better value.
Constantly Improving:
With a paid development team, Pro Flight Simulator 2015 can only get better and better. They re-invest the funds back into the game to develop it. That means you’ll get frequently upgrades which makes the flight simulator potential one of the best in the market.
Joystick Support:
You can easily sync yoour joysticks, rudders, etc to work with Flight Simulator.They have a system that makes it easy for you to hook up any hardware in your PC/Mac. With Flight Gear, you need a IT degree to meddle with complex XML coding. It is a real hassle to try to even get your hardware to work
Professional and Personal Support:
You get a team of support staff asking every question and problem you face with Pro Flight Simulator 2015. The professional support comes free for life. With Flight Gear, there isn’t an official support channel. This alone is worth paying for the game.
VATSim and SimConnect/ FSUIPC Coming Soon:
This is a development that is able to be released. In the next few updates, it will be VATSim compatible. That means you can fly with multiple players across a standard network. (VATSim, SimConnect).
Video Card Compatibility.
It is compatible with most video cards and solves the problem of lagging and sluggishness experienced by a lot of Flight Gear users. Most major graphic card bugs in Flightgear have been fixed by Pro Flight Simulator 2015.
Did I Mention Free Upgrades?
What I really love again about Pro Flight Simulator 2015 is the free upgrades for life. I’m waiting for the next update where it will include 10 more planes and 50 more scenery packs. The frequent updates is what makes this game head and shoulders above Flight Gear.


In conclusion, although Pro Flight Simulator 2015 is based on Flightgear, it is FAR SUPERIOR. As a paid product, you get so much more features and benefits.

Pro Flight Simulator 2015 is NOT Flight Gear!
Pro Flight Simulator is NOT Flight Gear, I’ve sent an email to Dan Freeman of Pro Flight Simulator 2015 to inquire: “Dan, Pro Flight Simulator 2015 seems to be based on Flight Gear. Could you explain why you’re charging for this?”

HIS REPLY:
Pro Flight Simulator 2015 is an open source stand alone Flight Simulator 2015.As always disclosed this is a split / branch from the Flight Gear community and has been set up for a very specific reason.

It’s different from FG due to the many major changes to the game.
Here are some of the changes:

A plug and play system that works without the hassles of advanced customizationMakes it easy to start playing the game without having the need to perform complex technical installation.
We offer a one stop launch system and makes it easy to add aircraft + scenery.No more fiddling with files and not knowing where to copy them. Its a one-click installation process.
The complete start up of the game was rewritten to help new users with this issue.
There is better hardware and add-on software interfacing capabilities.(Eg: Joystick support)
We’ve incorporated more photo realistic sceneryNew updates are added monthly.
Reduce the lag effect in flying
New aircraft models are added on a regular basis.(FG does not provide new updates very regularly)
VATSim network integration! Fly with other pilots on aviation networks.(should be ready in 4 months time)

To be compliant, we’ve released the game until the GNU/GPL license. All images are attributed and licensed according to their respective licenses.There’re also planned works to include a few major improvements in the next few months namely:

Improving joystick interface (one-click configuration with all major flight control hardware)
Intergrating VATSIM and other network support.
Constant development of new aircrafts and new sceneries.

It would be much much different from what Flight Gear was.
We have a team of paid developers who are working full time to add new code and new ideas to fully develop this. As such, the cost you’ll be paying will go into the development of this game.

There will be new changes and updates every month.
This is a separate branch of Flight Gear and it may be based on it but it is definitely NOT similar in the aspects mentioned above.To say it is simply Flight Gear would be inaccurate and illegal.
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby Johan G » Wed May 20, 2015 11:52 pm

Hmm, I remember at least one guy, a Canadian, who was not a happy customer (if I recall correctly he could not get it to install and could not get any support) and would not get a re-found from them. In the end he had the payment withdrawn. After that he was with us for one or two years.

Anyway, any reasonably computer literate person who reads that through would raise an eyebrow over some of those statements, though many of the other look legit (if it was not for some few other things one have learned by being on the forum for a few years).
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby Hooray » Thu May 21, 2015 1:54 am

once they start distributing modified GPL software, they're required to share their source code modifications with the recipients if requested.
So it would be dead-easy to verify any of those claims, but being familiar with a few of the areas allegedly "optimized", I am 99.9% sure that this is just unsubstantiated b/s
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby agough » Thu May 21, 2015 8:20 am

So... where's the source code then? They've obviously made changes to it, so I guess, legally, they need to make it available?

"Hosting and/or Redistribution of the FlightProSim software is illegal: You MAY NOT host or redistribute ANY software / material with the FlightProSim Name, Trademark, Logo and website. The Software may be obtained in source code format, altered, recompiled and redistributed without any attribution to FlightProSim, according to the General Public License under which use of the Software is governed."

...yes, but from where? There's a developer login portal on their website, but it looks more like a job application than anything. Legally, how readily available does GPL'ed code have to be?
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby Johan G » Thu May 21, 2015 9:45 am

agough wrote in Thu May 21, 2015 8:20 am:I guess, legally, they need to make it available?

Only to the recipients. Note that GPL license is about is free as in free speech, not necessarily free as in free beer.

From the license text:
6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this License.
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby gsagostinho » Thu May 21, 2015 10:13 am

I particularly love how they can't even decide on the spelling of "their" product. Each paragraph it's a different thing: Flight Simulator 2015, Pro Flight Simulator, Flight Gear Pro Flight Simulator, ProFlightSimulator, Pro Flight Simulator 2015. Later in that page they even dare to call it Microsoft Flight Simulator 2015, I kid you not!!

To say it is simply Flight Gear would be inaccurate and illegal.

I am no lawer, but illegal to say it?! Facepalm...
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby CaptB » Thu May 21, 2015 10:57 am

Funny about VATSIM connectivity, as on the VATSIM forums there is no information or talk about that "product", and no indication that a client is developed. Strange since you cannot connect to VATSIM with an unauthorised client and you cannot develop a fully functional authorised client without signing the ugly NDA.
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby Hooray » Thu May 21, 2015 12:09 pm

it would be possible using a separate application that interfaces between fgfs and VATSIM/IVAO, it being proprietary/closed-source
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby CaptB » Thu May 21, 2015 12:35 pm

Hooray wrote in Thu May 21, 2015 12:09 pm:it would be possible using a separate application that interfaces between fgfs and VATSIM/IVAO, it being proprietary/closed-source


Such application would have to fake the data that is expected from the Sim/Network and possibly that is not just the FSD stuff but also the NDA covered parts.
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby Hooray » Thu May 21, 2015 4:11 pm

do a forum/devel list search for VATSIM and IVAO to learn how this can be done
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 21, 2015 4:15 pm

agough wrote in Thu May 21, 2015 8:20 am:...yes, but from where? There's a developer login portal on their website, but it looks more like a job application than anything. Legally, how readily available does GPL'ed code have to be?


It has to be available per request.
But in any case they clearly hardly playing the rules by the book.
Not that I know of anyone interested in wasting court money on them, thou.
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 21, 2015 4:46 pm

gsagostinho wrote in Wed May 20, 2015 6:29 pm: “Dan, Pro Flight Simulator 2015 seems to be based on Flight Gear. Could you explain why you’re charging for this?”


Dear Gilberto
Once you realize this, you may consider calm about this issue.

I understand, you can commercialize (sell/buy) any GPL licensed software (including all and every piece of software on the GNU collection).
Meaning, if I can sell you flight gear (even completely exact, without even a single added comma at the end of any line of code!), at any price you dare to buy me. As simple as that.
There is nothing illegal or dark, or under-the-books for me to sell flightgear to you, as much as I tax the sell and my income appropriately.

GPL provides commercial licensing to do so.

The question at the end, is: Why would you give me money for something you can also download for free?
The answer is that everytime there is a sell; there is a buy. and that's it.

So, Is GPL protecting FG (or any of its software) from commercial abuse?. Well, the problem is what exactly constitutes commercial abuse. As a matter of fact, even the price tag of the product is just a final agreement on the buyer about how much he/she/it is willing to pay for the product (even, again, on the face that the same thing can be got "free" as in "free-beer" in the FG website!)

GPL is about preserving the chain of freedoms. To make this understandable, think of it with a closed-source, propietary software: MS Windows (any version, you want to call). You can acquire this piece of software, legally, only by purchasing the license to use. When you pay that "fine" -the bid- you are buying your authority to use the software. MS reserves its rights of copying, redistributing, and modifying to itself. Meaning, you cannot legally 1) make a copy (even for safety purposes, I believe!), 2) sell your copy, or even giveth out for free! --like installing it on your mom-s computer is illegal, nor 3) modify it to suit your usage interest (note that customizing desktops is not customizing software in the code-level sense of it!) ==you cannot modify it, which makes questioning about selling your improvements out of discussion ages ago!

You can get a GPL software free (as in free beer, or a download), or you can even pay for it (as in people buying different linux distros). There's nothing illegal on that transaction!. But GPL protection really comes in the following form. When you acquire (any means/any price) a GPLed software, you acquire with it the right to 1) copy it ==as many times/forms as you deem useful for you 2) redistribute it. Yes! you can sell me flightgear at any price I agree to buy it (which currently is 0 dollars net). You can also sell the FG you buy from your distributor as well :D. And at a higher price if you get the agreeable buyer!, and 3) you retain the ability to modify it, and re-market your modifications.

Here is the catch (which some FGers seem not to comprehend at all!): Copyleft implies that no matter how you get GPL software, and no matter what modification you make to it (small one comma at the end of the code, of the introduction of millions of new files, and millions of new contributions), the software you received GPL remains GPL!. You cannot legally add non-GPL material to it -GPL will virally take over the more restrictive license!.

And that last paragraph really implies where ProFlightB.S is going wrong. They cannot limit you to copy, modify and redistribute: Not legally. Which means, by all means, you do not need to abide to such petition. Either of two things happen: 1) The petition is void, or 2) their license gets void and they get forbidden to continue distribution on GPL clauses. "give software liberty or giveth death".

So, in brief summary: GPL is not a prohibition to sell. Nor a prohibition to "copyright" material. It's all about ensuring that the recipient of the software is the real owner of what he is acquiring (for free or by a price tag). If you own it, you can copy it, modify it and distribute it as widely as you can, without falling in the traps of the "piracy" legal loop hole. In this sense, GPL really is just a prohibition to the middleman to gain "ownership" on the software GPLed.

So relax :D
Let the ProFlightB.S2015 do their business. And avoid falling on the trap: FG is free as in free-beer too, as you know!
The point where they may end up in copyright courts is when they say "you cannot copy or resale". That 's lying, and an improper business practice that can cost them a reasonable legal case.
If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it? Probably not, because if they don’t recognise their freedoms, they’ll let their freedoms fall
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby gsagostinho » Thu May 21, 2015 6:30 pm

Hi Israel,

I am very well aware what is a GPL license and what it allows. Indeed there is nothing illegal being done by those idiots when it comes to selling old versions of FG (and I never said there was), but what boils my blood is that I see this as a totally unethical approach. What is worse is that they use deliberate lies to hook people who are unaware of their scam:

New aircraft models are added on a regular basis.(FG does not provide new updates very regularly)

What a joke...

Also, please refrain from turning this thread into another FGDATA vs FGMEMBERS issue, quoting Thorsten here or there, this is really getting so exhausting already......

IAHM-COL wrote:Let the ProFlightB.S2015 do their business

I never proposed anything otherwise, I simply shared some absurd text in which they pretend to improve FG in a lot of regards (such as video card and joystick compatibility).
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 21, 2015 7:00 pm

yes.
Their unethical byz approaches is what damned them
Including misrepresentations and lies :joystick, and aricraft improvements

I did not quote Thorsten about a FGMEMBERs vs FGDATA thing. More here like a "misunderstanding of the extent of the GPL letter" thing.
Copyleft concept has nothing to do with these two aircraft repositories. But it definitely has more to do with the FligthProSime thing, and with the "shuttle petitions".

If you want to call exhaustion, tell me about it, that I had to be listening others whine.

Keep in mind that the question you emailed Dan Freeman was: Why you charged for this?
Which obviously did not address the critical point, IMHO. (becuasse he can charge for it, and need no further explaining!)

The question I suggest to ask instead are related to the validity of their clauses 2 and 3 here, and their applicable extent
http://www.flightprosim.com/gpl/

Essentially, they should not be able limit you to redistribute and host this software. And even sell it for a lower tag price again (if you can get buyers given FG is free! == or even freely! Nor limit you to get their source code once you buy it and implement such code elsewhere [note: I am not saying they really have modifications that are valuable to us! do not waste your money is my sound advise here. ]). Saying that the material you are distributing is branded elsewhere as Flight Pro Sim (or any other logo/name they want to trademark) should not be illegal. And really, frankly, at that point, their trademarked name and logo becomes totally unimportant.
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Thu May 21, 2015 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I have to laugh not to cry...

Postby gsagostinho » Thu May 21, 2015 7:02 pm

Keep in mind that the question you emailed Dan Freeman was: Why you charged for this?

I never e-mailed that guy, I simply copied the text from their official website. Everything I posted here is from their webpage!
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